Fun fact about yours truly: I do not have an MFA. Nor do I have a Master’s Degree in Literature or a PhD in Creative Writing.
But Becky, you’re surely thinking. Without a Master’s degree in Literature, how can it be that you are such a True Literary Master?
Great question. And one I ask myself all the time.
All joking aside, I really do not possess any sort of advanced degree. (Also, I am not in any way shape or form a master of anything. Except maybe cooking spaghetti. I boil a mean pot of water now and again.)
Point is, I have no idea what goes on inside these classrooms and programs.
Thus I was recently surprised when someone informed me that many MFA programs spend little time, if any, talking about literary magazines.
I always assumed that lit mags were pretty big in MFA programs. What better way to support the magazines than have the universities fund subscriptions, and for professors to teach the work being published in them?
Don’t aspiring writers also need to learn the skills of submitting, understanding the market and dealing with rejection letters?
Some fiction MFA students may be focused on writing novels. But I think this is rare, and perhaps even relatively new. Most fiction students are encouraged to focus on short stories, at least initially. Stories are easier to workshop, the risk is smaller if a project doesn’t pan out, and stories are the perfect vehicles to deliver a deeper understanding of craft elements like point of view, conflict, etc.
Therefore, wouldn’t the stories of the students’ contemporaries be great teaching tools?
Same with poets and nonfiction writers. How better to teach a hermit crab essay or a ghazal than to take outstanding examples newly published in print and online magazines?
On the business end, isn’t it necessary for young writers to know the ins and outs of lit mags? To know who is publishing what, where? To know the difference between a student-run magazine with a rotating staff and an independent magazine with one single editor? To have an understanding of how lit mags operate and to appreciate the importance of supporting independent publishing?
In a recent article, Lincoln Michel writes, “There is surely a way to provide both a space for art for arts sake—for discussions of just craft and aesthetics and literature—and also provide students with instruction on navigating the murky, foggy, shark-filled waters of publishing.”
I agree. While that long period a student devotes to their craft is precious, even sacred, I don’t see any reason why the work being published in lit mags today need be excluded from study.
And teaching the process for submitting to and publishing in these magazines could take just a few class sessions, but would be well worth the investment.
Right?
What am I missing?
What has your experience been? Did you talk about lit mag publishing in your program? Do you wish you had?
Do professors indeed use magazines as teaching tools? If you are a professor, what has your experience been?
Do you think MFA programs should spend more time on lit mags, both reading them and submitting to them?
Do MFA programs do writers a disservice when they don’t talk about the world of lit mags?
I do not have an MFA or an advanced degree in anything. It took me eight or nine years to get an undergraduate degree patched together from three different schools. I have attended writing programs. There were few if any participants that sent work to literary magazines. When I shared my regular submitting (and not infrequent publication) of stories and essays, many people seemed puzzled and surprised that it was a "thing," with a sense that they did not see the point. There was intense focus on how to win over agents with compelling elevator talks, or whatever that thing is where you seduce someone in twenty seconds with your book "idea." Needless to say I was a dismal failure, and kept talking long after the elevator had emptied out and indeed, was plunging brakeless twenty floors to a fiery date with the basement.
Not to be too cynical (well, OK—here comes some cynicism, along with a syllogism):
IF the typical MFA program is essentially a combination cash cow and pyramid scheme,
AND practically no writers in any genre manage to support themselves to any significant extent with their writing,
THEN it is in the interest of university administrators and MFA program pooh-bahs not to foreground the mechanics of publishing, lest an understanding of said mechanics bring enlightenment regarding publishing’s economics and thus dampen enthusiasm for the offerings of the MFA cartel.
Disclaimer: There are many reasons for pursuing an MFA, and all are valid from the perspective of the individual.
I have been doing the DIY MFA since before it was a thing. Otherwise, MA and PhD/ABD in Romance languages and literatures. And (again) 40 years as a book editor.
It's been my experience that academic programs of a non-science or business variety do little or nothing to prepare students for the workforce or their proper vocational pursuits. I don't know if that's inherently bad, but it seems like offering a course or two about it—or even an ancillary service of some kind—would be immensely helpful.
Hi Becky. Great questions and topic. For many years, I too have been very active in the literary community without having an MFA. I decided to get one relatively late in life because I wanted to teach Creative Writing at a reputable university, and an MFA was required. I have a lot of nice things to say about Stony Brook University’s Creative Writing Program (Stony Brook is on Long Island, NY, and the MFA program is oddly not in Stony Brook, but split between Southampton and Manhattan). But as you mention, there was little focus on literary magazines, and this is unfortunate. I am sure Stony Brook is not alone. This is probably quite the norm for college MFA programs, and do not want to call out this one school.
Why this is, boggles my mind. I believe lit mags are probably the best source for education in creative writing, which carries with it a clear means of students getting their work out there for publication, via the submission process. What could be more important?
Stony Brook was nice enough to hire me on an adjunct basis to teach undergraduate creative writing, and as part of the semester’s work, I require students to make at least one submission, giving them a hand-picked list of lit mags that I believe to be as impartial as possible (many lit mags are quite biased in their decisions), submission fee-free (students are broke!), and quite reputable.
One thing I have learned, though, in trying to get a full-time professorship in Creative Writing, is that an MFA is typically not enough. Most universities also require publication of a full-length book from a reputable press. Having 30-40 short stories published individually in lit mags does not count. So many tears.
For those of you living in NY that may already be teaching at a SUNY school and/or are in the UUP teacher’s union, you should know there is a nice benefit that allows you to take one class per semester in any curriculum for free. This is a great perk. Perhaps other states have a similar arrangement. It would pertain to state-run colleges. Many schools, like Stony Brook, will also allow you to teach undergraduate creative writing as part of the MFA. You are considered a Teaching Assistant but run your own class(s), and get paid.
In summary, do MFA programs get into lit mags enough? Definitely not. Are they worth it, especially if you want to teach? Well, an MFA is required and my earning of one was more enjoyable, and cheaper, than I originally thought. But don’t forget, you need a whole book published besides. Hope this was helpful. - Joe Levens
I earned and MFA, which to be clear is not a Masters in Literature, that is is an MA and does not include creative writing instruction. There is little to no crossover between what is studied in these two separate fields. The MA is about the study of theory & historical context. The MFA is about the practice and craft of writing.
MFA stands for Master of Fine Art and is focused on different types of writing skills for the practice of Fiction, Creative Nonfiction, Nonfiction, Poetry, and Screenwriting. Every class I've ever been in (14+years of workshops and seminars) use Literary Journals as primary source materials and many MFA’s run literary journals—which is were writers train to be readers, editors, etc.
Most programs offer some professional development, but certainly not enough. Probably because most teachers and program directors make their money in academia, and not from the writing they produce--Facts.
In my experience as both a writer and editor, most writers would be better off working one-on-one with a developmental editor, than getting an overpriced degree.
FYI- there are only about 300 creative writing teaching jobs in the US and programs are graduating about 30,000 students a year—the MFA is generally meant for those who want to teach at the University and Graduate levels of education but publishing is still more important than the degree.
I have worked on journals as an editor and guest contributor, launched a journal from scratch and am getting ready to launch another one. Most journals do not make money. Neither do most editors, readers and the writers they publish. Most writers live off speaking fees, editing or teaching.
“Most journals do not make money. Neither do most editors, readers and the writers they publish. Most writers live off speaking fees, editing or teaching.”
Truth.
And double truth for poets and poetry journals.
It’s a gift economy, for the most part. But when I said this to a recent MFA poetry grad, he countered with all the awards and “cushy” teaching jobs and residencies he expects to have. All I could do is wish him luck (and silently hope that he doesn’t have $30K of MFA debt).
Sep 17, 2022·edited Sep 17, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch
My mentor (who was in her 80s in the 70s when I was in her writer’s workshop) liked what I did and gave me some good advice when I was a mere lad. Reviewing my work she told me - it’s good, but I shouldn’t quit my day job.
That’s not as harsh as it may sound. She was an author’s agent who mostly worked with Scribner’s and had a handful of prestigious clients, and she knew my stuff would never be mainstreamed, but if I stayed true to what I was doing it would find an audience. And besides, starving is just stupid.
She was right. The tumblers clicked in my direction after years of wheel-spinning and suddenly people were saying ‘yes.’ It took years of showing up in small altzines but then the first novel was put out by Spuyten Duyvil and there I was.
I don’t have an MFA, took two classes at Columbia Chicago before it was accredited and the writer’s workshop in the early 70s. Though I’ve published two indie lit mags that had no institutional backing of any kind I’ve published everybody from Hugh Fox (think Pushcart) to Lorri Jackson to Richard Kostelanetz, Reza Farazmand, Lyn Lifshin, Shiela Murphy, and John M Bennett.
This is not horn-blowing. Because if you measure progress by dollars, big name magazines, and your getting published by the Big 5 then I am an abject and total failure.
I would imagine a college degree, or even a college experience (all my job applications say ‘some college’) would have helped with networking. But I just don’t think you need, in my opinion, the standard path to find your place or your voice.
As far as the financial aspect of the litmag market I am no one to give advice since I must have the worst track record of applying for grant applications on Earth.
The thing is - how bad do you want it? There’s a way if you’re willing to slug it out.
My MFA program at San Francisco State University offered a class called The Business of Creative Writing (also open to undergraduate creative writing majors), in which a different working writer came to each class to talk about how they fold writing into their daily lives, the different routes you can take into writing-related or writing-adjacent fields, and so on. Many were working other jobs and writing outside of those jobs. The idea being that writing takes commitment, flexibility, and must come with its own rewards for you bc extrinsic motivations can be few and far between.
I also meant to add that this is an excellent question. Too many programs don't talk about real life experience or give their students the tools they need after the classes are completed.
Sep 17, 2022·edited Sep 17, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch
We were literally advised not to send anything out, but to focus on craft. Not be distracted. But I love sending things out, still do, probably always will. It's kind of a thrill to think a stranger is reading. (Is that kinky?)
The low-res MFA program I teach fiction in has a visiting agent/editor every residency to answer biz questions, and I (and many) teachers set aside time in workshop to go over submission guidelines. My MFA program did not cover these topics...and we managed to figure it out in our own (pre-Google!). Honestly, I don't think it's all that hard to pick up the basics of publishing in lit journals and to learn to pay attention to catch the nuances. I think it's the writer's job to stay abreast of the field. If the writing isn't polished and perfect enough, hitting an editor/agent at the magical lucky moment, NO amount of "how to submit" will help. (Also, I've found that a lot of students don't necessarily want to hear the depressing truth about the biz side.)
I'm in an MFA program at Bay Path University, primarily because I wanted the credibility of the the degree in order to teach. I think it's important to remember that "higher education" such as an MFA is not generally designed to be vocational; rather, such programs are full of philosophical, interactive, experimental and experiential approaches, with ideas that push us to think about the world differently than we might otherwise. I love that about it. There are masses of materials available for reading and discussion; of course, no given class can cover it all. Lit mags are discussed at times, and oftentimes both instructors and students will share experiences with both submission and publication, but that is just one resource. Also, every MFA program is unique; mine is in Creative Nonfiction with an emphasis in Narrative Medicine, so for coursework I read a lot of memoir, essays, books on craft, non-fiction on health care in our country, and utilize videos, audio, and other multimedia sources.
I think it's important to consider why someone chooses to go into an MFA program; if they want vocational training, there are programs for that. If they want to encounter ideas and philosophies that are new to them, there are different programs for that. It's really not appropriate to lump all MFA programs into one category. Hopefully, each of us can find what we want and need in the world of academics or the world of hands-on experience. An MFA is certainly not a requirement to be a writer, but it is one path to follow should someone choose to do so.
My MFA program did offer some instruction on submitting to lit mags. One prof offered one piece of advice I remember because it's still a little scandalous: he said to ignore the writing guideline that says "no simultaneous submissions." Probably the most helpful part of my program, with regards to lit mags, is the internship at the program's magazine. I remember learning to edit sound files of mag contributors reading their stories, etc. Editing out all the "um's and ah's." It was a good lesson to see the behind-the-scenes of a highly reputable lit mag. I don't think we were pushed very hard to submit our work, however. I think we were cautioned to not submit our work too early. However, I got my first story published my first semester of the program, so I guess I was already working on breaking the rules!
I teach in an undergrad writing program and love teaching about lit journals. They offer a great example of success that isn't monetary. I didn't learn much about them in grad school except anecdotal advice, tho submitting and publishing was encouraged. I had no understanding of lit journal history or how fabulously radical it was. This isn't the biz of writing but it is great stuff! For undergrad instructors, check out fuse_national.com. This is a great way to get students aware and involved with lit journals.
My low-residency MFA program did offer seminars and panels about publication but, for some reason, while the large majority of MFA students were female, most of those at the helm of journals and publishing houses, were male. I couldn't help but wonder what allowed for that shift. I find it interesting that those in positions of power when it comes to determining what is and what is not worthy of publication are largely male. To my mind that explains a lot.
To my mostly uninformed mind, MFA programs for creative writing are a distinctively US phenomenon. Their origin can likely be traced back to what Lincoln Michel in the enclosed article referred to as the hellishness of capitalism. A quick google search reveals that while there are several MFA programs now available in the UK (and three in Spain), they are mostly unheard of in the rest of Europe. In Germany, where I grew up, the closest you could come to practicing your writing was to be accepted into a journalism program, and getting into one of those was harder than getting into medical school (by way of GPA/ honors, etc.).
Another google search reveals that there are currently nineteen (19) literary journals published in Germany, most of them academic in nature. Huh. Does that mean I don’t love Lit mags? Absolutely NOT! I love what you are doing, Becky, and please keep at it. Just trying for a different perspective, I guess?
We didn't talk about journals in my MFA program. We didn't even talk about publishing. It was just about the writing. I guess there wasn't much time; it was a one-year intensive (very intensive) program, with four workshops—three for short stories, one novella/novel.
Although the profs didn't talk business, we did get a visit from an agent. She talked to my cohort one evening (I couldn't attend) and then gave us her info to make individual appointments. A few of us did, sending her stuff beforehand and then getting her feedback in person. I didn't have anything ready, so I emailed her for a raincheck.
After graduation, I asked one of my profs about publishing in journals, what the value was. His guidance included: "If you want to write a book of short stories, the magazine submission is essential. It is to build credits for the manuscript and also to open way for yourself as a short story writer....
...If you view yourself primarily as a novelist, the magazine submission is not relevant. You should give everything to the book manuscript."
There are numerous MFA programs that house literary journals on which MFA students serve as staff., which gives students important experience from the other side of the lit mag desk. Poets & Writers published a list earlier this month: https://www.pw.org/content/literary_journals_us_mfa_programs. It's not comprehensive, as Tab Journal (which I edit) and Quarter After Eight (for which I was an early editor as a PhD student) aren't on the list, so there are undoubtedly more.
There exists a Journal of the Month Club (which can be scheduled for every two or three months instead) that has an option geared toward teaching that allows the instructor to select which journals to teach. The instructor gets a free subscription, and each student pays $48. Here's the basics: "When you use our classroom program, we provide 4 literary journals to the students in your class, roughly one a month throughout the semester. If you’d like, you can video conference with editors from those journals as well." Here's the website: https://www.journalofthemonth.com. Individual journals have discounts for classroom use, and I have sent a batch of TabJournal at no cost to instructors who request copies for class.
I direct the MFA in Creative Writing at Chapman University, and all our incoming student take our Aspects of a Writer course that covers publishing, literary culture, careers, and sustaining a writing life. About a decade ago, we developed the course to address the lack in most MFA programs, and now such courses are popping up elsewhere. In addition, we've been working here at Chapman U on an Open Educational Resources textbook for our Aspects of a Writer course that we'll pilot later this fall (though not all the parts will have content yet). That new resource will be freely available and licensed for non-commercial use under a Creative Commons license, and importantly, it's something we can continue to build.
A big thing missing in these academic discussions is the "business" of writing. In my MFA / literary experiences, it was always about the submitting, submitting, submitting and the reading, reading, reading of literary journals but less about the networking and marketing of the self, which is arguably more important for those aspiring to have their work in the world. You need to connect with editors and get a foot in the door in a human-to-human way – just like all other businesses. We all know how the world works and submitting yourself to the will of the slush pile, especially at the directing of a professor, seems a bit myopic (not to mention a shrugging off of the truth, giving professors who have been out of the submission / agenting world a pass from doing the work). It's fabulous that there is the egalitarian spirit to submitting and querying...but we all know that's not fully the reality of getting ahead in the world.
Ah, it occurs to this old man that one problem we Americans have is equating degrees with intelligence [another is equating 'net worth' with worth as a human being, but that for another time]. So if you have an M.A., you gotta be smarter than a guy with a B.A. [who in turn can look down on a high school grad], and if you got a Ph.D., well, all bow down!!! Some of the dumbest people I know went to college, or grad school but the idea that you need an MFA to 'teach' creativity is absurd on many levels. Foremost is that creativity cannot be taught--period! Full disclosure: as an English major I took a creative writing course my senior year of college ['68-69] and got a 'C'-- maybe because I had the Vietnam war draft on my mind, or more likely because I thought it was a b.s. course. At best a creative writing teacher might act as an editor, helping awareness of the weak parts, encouraging the strong side. But nobody [short of God] can teach anyone how to write the Great American novel, or a poem that sparks satori like in another mind, or for that matter a sonata! Have not we all re-read a poem or story we wrote that was published and go, 'Wow! I wrote that! ' and wonder just how we created something that had such life to it, a soul of its own you might say....
I don't have an MFA - but my son does. He's a poet and a few of his professors offered suggestions about possible journals for his work, but he didn't have any official classes on the submission process. I think most of what he learned was through casual conversations with fellow students.
My partner just finished his MFA and one of the things he found incredibly frustrating was the lack of submission and lit mag education. Which was made even more apparent because we both had an English prof who is a relatively well known author who intentionally did teach about lit mags and the submission process in her undergraduate English classes.
I run a lit mag and writing sessions for rural teens now and one of the things I’ve been intentional about is talking about is the submission process, as well as sharing paid publishing opportunities because I know from personal experience how daunting and confusing and time consuming it can be.
Mine offers an elective on the business of writing and once a year hosts short individual meetings with agents and publishers. These are also optional. One of my fiction profs gave a class on publishing contracts at the end of the term which I found useful (certainly eye opening on the don't-quit-your-day-job question). I opted not to take the business course because I wanted to take more craft courses, but given how expensive MFAs are, I do think programs have an obligation to offer some professional support to students. On the other hand, lit mags are a part of MFA culture. Many mags are housed in and run by universities and their students. I'd be surprised if someone got through an entire MFA without at least some exposure.
I do not have an MFA or an advanced degree in anything. It took me eight or nine years to get an undergraduate degree patched together from three different schools. I have attended writing programs. There were few if any participants that sent work to literary magazines. When I shared my regular submitting (and not infrequent publication) of stories and essays, many people seemed puzzled and surprised that it was a "thing," with a sense that they did not see the point. There was intense focus on how to win over agents with compelling elevator talks, or whatever that thing is where you seduce someone in twenty seconds with your book "idea." Needless to say I was a dismal failure, and kept talking long after the elevator had emptied out and indeed, was plunging brakeless twenty floors to a fiery date with the basement.
hahahaha.
Not to be too cynical (well, OK—here comes some cynicism, along with a syllogism):
IF the typical MFA program is essentially a combination cash cow and pyramid scheme,
AND practically no writers in any genre manage to support themselves to any significant extent with their writing,
THEN it is in the interest of university administrators and MFA program pooh-bahs not to foreground the mechanics of publishing, lest an understanding of said mechanics bring enlightenment regarding publishing’s economics and thus dampen enthusiasm for the offerings of the MFA cartel.
Disclaimer: There are many reasons for pursuing an MFA, and all are valid from the perspective of the individual.
I have been doing the DIY MFA since before it was a thing. Otherwise, MA and PhD/ABD in Romance languages and literatures. And (again) 40 years as a book editor.
It's been my experience that academic programs of a non-science or business variety do little or nothing to prepare students for the workforce or their proper vocational pursuits. I don't know if that's inherently bad, but it seems like offering a course or two about it—or even an ancillary service of some kind—would be immensely helpful.
Hi Becky. Great questions and topic. For many years, I too have been very active in the literary community without having an MFA. I decided to get one relatively late in life because I wanted to teach Creative Writing at a reputable university, and an MFA was required. I have a lot of nice things to say about Stony Brook University’s Creative Writing Program (Stony Brook is on Long Island, NY, and the MFA program is oddly not in Stony Brook, but split between Southampton and Manhattan). But as you mention, there was little focus on literary magazines, and this is unfortunate. I am sure Stony Brook is not alone. This is probably quite the norm for college MFA programs, and do not want to call out this one school.
Why this is, boggles my mind. I believe lit mags are probably the best source for education in creative writing, which carries with it a clear means of students getting their work out there for publication, via the submission process. What could be more important?
Stony Brook was nice enough to hire me on an adjunct basis to teach undergraduate creative writing, and as part of the semester’s work, I require students to make at least one submission, giving them a hand-picked list of lit mags that I believe to be as impartial as possible (many lit mags are quite biased in their decisions), submission fee-free (students are broke!), and quite reputable.
One thing I have learned, though, in trying to get a full-time professorship in Creative Writing, is that an MFA is typically not enough. Most universities also require publication of a full-length book from a reputable press. Having 30-40 short stories published individually in lit mags does not count. So many tears.
For those of you living in NY that may already be teaching at a SUNY school and/or are in the UUP teacher’s union, you should know there is a nice benefit that allows you to take one class per semester in any curriculum for free. This is a great perk. Perhaps other states have a similar arrangement. It would pertain to state-run colleges. Many schools, like Stony Brook, will also allow you to teach undergraduate creative writing as part of the MFA. You are considered a Teaching Assistant but run your own class(s), and get paid.
In summary, do MFA programs get into lit mags enough? Definitely not. Are they worth it, especially if you want to teach? Well, an MFA is required and my earning of one was more enjoyable, and cheaper, than I originally thought. But don’t forget, you need a whole book published besides. Hope this was helpful. - Joe Levens
I earned and MFA, which to be clear is not a Masters in Literature, that is is an MA and does not include creative writing instruction. There is little to no crossover between what is studied in these two separate fields. The MA is about the study of theory & historical context. The MFA is about the practice and craft of writing.
MFA stands for Master of Fine Art and is focused on different types of writing skills for the practice of Fiction, Creative Nonfiction, Nonfiction, Poetry, and Screenwriting. Every class I've ever been in (14+years of workshops and seminars) use Literary Journals as primary source materials and many MFA’s run literary journals—which is were writers train to be readers, editors, etc.
Most programs offer some professional development, but certainly not enough. Probably because most teachers and program directors make their money in academia, and not from the writing they produce--Facts.
In my experience as both a writer and editor, most writers would be better off working one-on-one with a developmental editor, than getting an overpriced degree.
FYI- there are only about 300 creative writing teaching jobs in the US and programs are graduating about 30,000 students a year—the MFA is generally meant for those who want to teach at the University and Graduate levels of education but publishing is still more important than the degree.
I have worked on journals as an editor and guest contributor, launched a journal from scratch and am getting ready to launch another one. Most journals do not make money. Neither do most editors, readers and the writers they publish. Most writers live off speaking fees, editing or teaching.
“Most journals do not make money. Neither do most editors, readers and the writers they publish. Most writers live off speaking fees, editing or teaching.”
Truth.
And double truth for poets and poetry journals.
It’s a gift economy, for the most part. But when I said this to a recent MFA poetry grad, he countered with all the awards and “cushy” teaching jobs and residencies he expects to have. All I could do is wish him luck (and silently hope that he doesn’t have $30K of MFA debt).
“Most writers would be better off working one-on-one with a developmental editor, than getting an overpriced degree.”
Bang on. I had the good fortune to work with a developmental editor who ran small critique groups on the side. She’s the reason I’m published.
My mentor (who was in her 80s in the 70s when I was in her writer’s workshop) liked what I did and gave me some good advice when I was a mere lad. Reviewing my work she told me - it’s good, but I shouldn’t quit my day job.
That’s not as harsh as it may sound. She was an author’s agent who mostly worked with Scribner’s and had a handful of prestigious clients, and she knew my stuff would never be mainstreamed, but if I stayed true to what I was doing it would find an audience. And besides, starving is just stupid.
She was right. The tumblers clicked in my direction after years of wheel-spinning and suddenly people were saying ‘yes.’ It took years of showing up in small altzines but then the first novel was put out by Spuyten Duyvil and there I was.
I don’t have an MFA, took two classes at Columbia Chicago before it was accredited and the writer’s workshop in the early 70s. Though I’ve published two indie lit mags that had no institutional backing of any kind I’ve published everybody from Hugh Fox (think Pushcart) to Lorri Jackson to Richard Kostelanetz, Reza Farazmand, Lyn Lifshin, Shiela Murphy, and John M Bennett.
This is not horn-blowing. Because if you measure progress by dollars, big name magazines, and your getting published by the Big 5 then I am an abject and total failure.
I would imagine a college degree, or even a college experience (all my job applications say ‘some college’) would have helped with networking. But I just don’t think you need, in my opinion, the standard path to find your place or your voice.
As far as the financial aspect of the litmag market I am no one to give advice since I must have the worst track record of applying for grant applications on Earth.
The thing is - how bad do you want it? There’s a way if you’re willing to slug it out.
My MFA program at San Francisco State University offered a class called The Business of Creative Writing (also open to undergraduate creative writing majors), in which a different working writer came to each class to talk about how they fold writing into their daily lives, the different routes you can take into writing-related or writing-adjacent fields, and so on. Many were working other jobs and writing outside of those jobs. The idea being that writing takes commitment, flexibility, and must come with its own rewards for you bc extrinsic motivations can be few and far between.
I also meant to add that this is an excellent question. Too many programs don't talk about real life experience or give their students the tools they need after the classes are completed.
We were literally advised not to send anything out, but to focus on craft. Not be distracted. But I love sending things out, still do, probably always will. It's kind of a thrill to think a stranger is reading. (Is that kinky?)
Haha. Definitely kinky.
The low-res MFA program I teach fiction in has a visiting agent/editor every residency to answer biz questions, and I (and many) teachers set aside time in workshop to go over submission guidelines. My MFA program did not cover these topics...and we managed to figure it out in our own (pre-Google!). Honestly, I don't think it's all that hard to pick up the basics of publishing in lit journals and to learn to pay attention to catch the nuances. I think it's the writer's job to stay abreast of the field. If the writing isn't polished and perfect enough, hitting an editor/agent at the magical lucky moment, NO amount of "how to submit" will help. (Also, I've found that a lot of students don't necessarily want to hear the depressing truth about the biz side.)
I'm in an MFA program at Bay Path University, primarily because I wanted the credibility of the the degree in order to teach. I think it's important to remember that "higher education" such as an MFA is not generally designed to be vocational; rather, such programs are full of philosophical, interactive, experimental and experiential approaches, with ideas that push us to think about the world differently than we might otherwise. I love that about it. There are masses of materials available for reading and discussion; of course, no given class can cover it all. Lit mags are discussed at times, and oftentimes both instructors and students will share experiences with both submission and publication, but that is just one resource. Also, every MFA program is unique; mine is in Creative Nonfiction with an emphasis in Narrative Medicine, so for coursework I read a lot of memoir, essays, books on craft, non-fiction on health care in our country, and utilize videos, audio, and other multimedia sources.
I think it's important to consider why someone chooses to go into an MFA program; if they want vocational training, there are programs for that. If they want to encounter ideas and philosophies that are new to them, there are different programs for that. It's really not appropriate to lump all MFA programs into one category. Hopefully, each of us can find what we want and need in the world of academics or the world of hands-on experience. An MFA is certainly not a requirement to be a writer, but it is one path to follow should someone choose to do so.
Becky,
This would be a great AWP panel! I'd be up for helping to organize...
My MFA program did offer some instruction on submitting to lit mags. One prof offered one piece of advice I remember because it's still a little scandalous: he said to ignore the writing guideline that says "no simultaneous submissions." Probably the most helpful part of my program, with regards to lit mags, is the internship at the program's magazine. I remember learning to edit sound files of mag contributors reading their stories, etc. Editing out all the "um's and ah's." It was a good lesson to see the behind-the-scenes of a highly reputable lit mag. I don't think we were pushed very hard to submit our work, however. I think we were cautioned to not submit our work too early. However, I got my first story published my first semester of the program, so I guess I was already working on breaking the rules!
I teach in an undergrad writing program and love teaching about lit journals. They offer a great example of success that isn't monetary. I didn't learn much about them in grad school except anecdotal advice, tho submitting and publishing was encouraged. I had no understanding of lit journal history or how fabulously radical it was. This isn't the biz of writing but it is great stuff! For undergrad instructors, check out fuse_national.com. This is a great way to get students aware and involved with lit journals.
My low-residency MFA program did offer seminars and panels about publication but, for some reason, while the large majority of MFA students were female, most of those at the helm of journals and publishing houses, were male. I couldn't help but wonder what allowed for that shift. I find it interesting that those in positions of power when it comes to determining what is and what is not worthy of publication are largely male. To my mind that explains a lot.
To my mostly uninformed mind, MFA programs for creative writing are a distinctively US phenomenon. Their origin can likely be traced back to what Lincoln Michel in the enclosed article referred to as the hellishness of capitalism. A quick google search reveals that while there are several MFA programs now available in the UK (and three in Spain), they are mostly unheard of in the rest of Europe. In Germany, where I grew up, the closest you could come to practicing your writing was to be accepted into a journalism program, and getting into one of those was harder than getting into medical school (by way of GPA/ honors, etc.).
Another google search reveals that there are currently nineteen (19) literary journals published in Germany, most of them academic in nature. Huh. Does that mean I don’t love Lit mags? Absolutely NOT! I love what you are doing, Becky, and please keep at it. Just trying for a different perspective, I guess?
We didn't talk about journals in my MFA program. We didn't even talk about publishing. It was just about the writing. I guess there wasn't much time; it was a one-year intensive (very intensive) program, with four workshops—three for short stories, one novella/novel.
Although the profs didn't talk business, we did get a visit from an agent. She talked to my cohort one evening (I couldn't attend) and then gave us her info to make individual appointments. A few of us did, sending her stuff beforehand and then getting her feedback in person. I didn't have anything ready, so I emailed her for a raincheck.
After graduation, I asked one of my profs about publishing in journals, what the value was. His guidance included: "If you want to write a book of short stories, the magazine submission is essential. It is to build credits for the manuscript and also to open way for yourself as a short story writer....
...If you view yourself primarily as a novelist, the magazine submission is not relevant. You should give everything to the book manuscript."
There are numerous MFA programs that house literary journals on which MFA students serve as staff., which gives students important experience from the other side of the lit mag desk. Poets & Writers published a list earlier this month: https://www.pw.org/content/literary_journals_us_mfa_programs. It's not comprehensive, as Tab Journal (which I edit) and Quarter After Eight (for which I was an early editor as a PhD student) aren't on the list, so there are undoubtedly more.
There exists a Journal of the Month Club (which can be scheduled for every two or three months instead) that has an option geared toward teaching that allows the instructor to select which journals to teach. The instructor gets a free subscription, and each student pays $48. Here's the basics: "When you use our classroom program, we provide 4 literary journals to the students in your class, roughly one a month throughout the semester. If you’d like, you can video conference with editors from those journals as well." Here's the website: https://www.journalofthemonth.com. Individual journals have discounts for classroom use, and I have sent a batch of TabJournal at no cost to instructors who request copies for class.
I direct the MFA in Creative Writing at Chapman University, and all our incoming student take our Aspects of a Writer course that covers publishing, literary culture, careers, and sustaining a writing life. About a decade ago, we developed the course to address the lack in most MFA programs, and now such courses are popping up elsewhere. In addition, we've been working here at Chapman U on an Open Educational Resources textbook for our Aspects of a Writer course that we'll pilot later this fall (though not all the parts will have content yet). That new resource will be freely available and licensed for non-commercial use under a Creative Commons license, and importantly, it's something we can continue to build.
A big thing missing in these academic discussions is the "business" of writing. In my MFA / literary experiences, it was always about the submitting, submitting, submitting and the reading, reading, reading of literary journals but less about the networking and marketing of the self, which is arguably more important for those aspiring to have their work in the world. You need to connect with editors and get a foot in the door in a human-to-human way – just like all other businesses. We all know how the world works and submitting yourself to the will of the slush pile, especially at the directing of a professor, seems a bit myopic (not to mention a shrugging off of the truth, giving professors who have been out of the submission / agenting world a pass from doing the work). It's fabulous that there is the egalitarian spirit to submitting and querying...but we all know that's not fully the reality of getting ahead in the world.
Ah, it occurs to this old man that one problem we Americans have is equating degrees with intelligence [another is equating 'net worth' with worth as a human being, but that for another time]. So if you have an M.A., you gotta be smarter than a guy with a B.A. [who in turn can look down on a high school grad], and if you got a Ph.D., well, all bow down!!! Some of the dumbest people I know went to college, or grad school but the idea that you need an MFA to 'teach' creativity is absurd on many levels. Foremost is that creativity cannot be taught--period! Full disclosure: as an English major I took a creative writing course my senior year of college ['68-69] and got a 'C'-- maybe because I had the Vietnam war draft on my mind, or more likely because I thought it was a b.s. course. At best a creative writing teacher might act as an editor, helping awareness of the weak parts, encouraging the strong side. But nobody [short of God] can teach anyone how to write the Great American novel, or a poem that sparks satori like in another mind, or for that matter a sonata! Have not we all re-read a poem or story we wrote that was published and go, 'Wow! I wrote that! ' and wonder just how we created something that had such life to it, a soul of its own you might say....
I don't have an MFA - but my son does. He's a poet and a few of his professors offered suggestions about possible journals for his work, but he didn't have any official classes on the submission process. I think most of what he learned was through casual conversations with fellow students.
My partner just finished his MFA and one of the things he found incredibly frustrating was the lack of submission and lit mag education. Which was made even more apparent because we both had an English prof who is a relatively well known author who intentionally did teach about lit mags and the submission process in her undergraduate English classes.
I run a lit mag and writing sessions for rural teens now and one of the things I’ve been intentional about is talking about is the submission process, as well as sharing paid publishing opportunities because I know from personal experience how daunting and confusing and time consuming it can be.
Mine offers an elective on the business of writing and once a year hosts short individual meetings with agents and publishers. These are also optional. One of my fiction profs gave a class on publishing contracts at the end of the term which I found useful (certainly eye opening on the don't-quit-your-day-job question). I opted not to take the business course because I wanted to take more craft courses, but given how expensive MFAs are, I do think programs have an obligation to offer some professional support to students. On the other hand, lit mags are a part of MFA culture. Many mags are housed in and run by universities and their students. I'd be surprised if someone got through an entire MFA without at least some exposure.
This strikes me as so odd. If programs aren’t connected to lit mags, how does AWP happen?
Many programs are indeed connected to lit mags.