Red flags at Dark Poets Club; finding community in the lit mag landscape; editing poetry for lit mags; editing long-form essays; coping with rejection; choosing not to submit; markets & more
Just one look at Dark Poets web site and I'm gone. I prefer simple, easy to read. Well, to each their own, I always say sometimes.
However, a domain having a private listing isn't anything special. These days, it's pretty much the default and many (some? all?) include it in the domain registration automatically and at no extra cost. Back in the day, a lookup for this info could be useful. These days, it's pretty much useless. I do lookups on a fairly regular basis and can't remember the last time it wasn't a hidden/private thing.
I had a non-private registration for my personal website for a while, and it was basically just a giant KICK ME sign for junk mail, electronic and otherwise.
I agree the "Truth about paying" thing is a big red flag ... Except for time, it's basically free to run a lit mag - if a mag has costs, it's at the editor's choosing... so to me, any lit mag charging a sub fee is a red flag (outside of contests).. If people wish to voluntarily donate/tip, that's fine... But fees? Nope!
I know. I just had to post an update on this original post. They added those two pages within minutes of the newsletter going out! Notice the masthead is still anonymous, which is interesting. I'll be watching to see how things develop, and will keep everyone updated!
I agree! Has any editor ever started a lit mag because a person HELD A GUN to his/ her head? NOPE. From this side of the writer's desk, my opinion is: if you can't afford to do it, then do not start it.
I saw Dark Poets a little while ago (not sure how) and thought ‘nope’. It’s great that they’ve added the T&Cs etc now, but it’s still not a place I would feel excited to submit my work to at this stage. The ‘justification’ for the fee felt way too defensive to me, and overly complex and rambling. Be upfront - we’re charging a fee because we want some money back for the time spent. That would be more engaging.
As ever, thank you for your newsletters. I love them!
Zivah, I've seen submission fees justified because the lit mag actually PAYS writers. As you've seen, Dark Poets does not. Cui bono? Hmmm. We know the answer.
I agree with you, Zivah. Highly suspicious!! Did you see the 2 links I posted [above] on The Dark Poets Prize (their 1st and 2nd contests)? They posted the names of more than 200 fee-paying contestants who received an "honorable mention" status. . . . 200+ . . .! That number would be preposterous for a serious lit mag. Tsk-tsk.
Zivah, the only other place where you will see HUNDREDS of "Honorable Mentions" will be on those screenwriting contest platforms. And those platforms will soak an applicant for a $200 submission fee to the (ahem) "contest."
RE: ONE ART Editor Mark Danowsky's essay on "The Pros and Cons of Theme" - - - the craft articles I've written on how to fast-forward your career always warn poets not to take the bait of THEMES unless (a.) you already have a poem on hand that suits the theme or (b.) writing to this theme would fit your current WIP. Ask yourself: do I want to complete my book? Will taking on this challenge fit into my WIP? If not, skip it. There is a memorable line from Hawthorne's short story "The Artist of the Beautiful" that I've copied into my writer's journal. . . . . . . . . . . It mentions seeking "other prizes than the dusty one along the highway." . . . . . . . Too often a theme issue holds out the promise of a dusty prize on the highway, i.e., a time-waster that will generate an unrelated oddity that will never enhance your WIP. * * * Be focused on the themes in your WIP, not on fruitless distractions and weird prompts.
RE: Dark Poets Club & submission fees and contest fees - - - - check out the results of their 1st contest for the Dark Poets Prize (with 200+ Honorable Mentions, all of whom paid a $ FEE): https://www.darkpoets.club/dark-poets-prize-results . . . . . . .. Heh-heh! And this $ $ $ money grab was such a lucrative success that the Dark Poets Prize then had a 2nd round . . . . . . . once again please note the hundreds of names under Honorable Mentions again: https://www.darkpoets.club/edition-ii-results . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . Thank you always, Becky!
Yikes, thanks for the red flag, Becky! I had no idea I was so freaking entitled to have people who probably know zero about writing, read my writing. I guess those agents I had were just a little ole fluke.
RE: Joffre Swait’s essay "Why I Never Submit to Literary Magazines." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OF NOTE: His book "Well Met: Poems of Companionship" (94 pgs) was self-published via Amazon's KDP in 2017. If your goal is to be self-published, then follow his advice. However, if you wish to be traditionally published, then most book publishers will want to see a certain number of lit-mag credits on your ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS page.
I love “Ghosts” by Vauhini Vara. I’ve used it in various creative writing classes over the years. Students usually respond well to it. It generated interesting discussion when it first came out (I remember teaching it in fall 2021), before ChatGPT and everything was commonplace. But it’s a good example of how you can incorporate AI into creative writing in a meaningful way. I look forward to your interview with her!
Just one look at Dark Poets web site and I'm gone. I prefer simple, easy to read. Well, to each their own, I always say sometimes.
However, a domain having a private listing isn't anything special. These days, it's pretty much the default and many (some? all?) include it in the domain registration automatically and at no extra cost. Back in the day, a lookup for this info could be useful. These days, it's pretty much useless. I do lookups on a fairly regular basis and can't remember the last time it wasn't a hidden/private thing.
Thanks for the heads up!
By the way: https://www.darkpoets.club/masthead
Thanks for that info, Victor. And yes, I saw the masthead. The page was added to the site very shortly after this newsletter was sent out.
Ah, you kicked them into gear. Good job Becky!
I had a non-private registration for my personal website for a while, and it was basically just a giant KICK ME sign for junk mail, electronic and otherwise.
Yes, that's why the private option has been so popular. Too much spam junk.. I used to get it, too.
When you click on Terms & Conditions in the menu this comes up ...
https://www.darkpoets.club/terms-conditions
It's their guidelines, eligibility, publication copyright & rights, Submission process, privacy, etc....
I agree the "Truth about paying" thing is a big red flag ... Except for time, it's basically free to run a lit mag - if a mag has costs, it's at the editor's choosing... so to me, any lit mag charging a sub fee is a red flag (outside of contests).. If people wish to voluntarily donate/tip, that's fine... But fees? Nope!
I know. I just had to post an update on this original post. They added those two pages within minutes of the newsletter going out! Notice the masthead is still anonymous, which is interesting. I'll be watching to see how things develop, and will keep everyone updated!
I wondered if they added that in response to you....lol .. I didn't notice the masthead when I looked...
But good job making them accountable!!
Thank you, Becky.
I agree! Has any editor ever started a lit mag because a person HELD A GUN to his/ her head? NOPE. From this side of the writer's desk, my opinion is: if you can't afford to do it, then do not start it.
I saw Dark Poets a little while ago (not sure how) and thought ‘nope’. It’s great that they’ve added the T&Cs etc now, but it’s still not a place I would feel excited to submit my work to at this stage. The ‘justification’ for the fee felt way too defensive to me, and overly complex and rambling. Be upfront - we’re charging a fee because we want some money back for the time spent. That would be more engaging.
As ever, thank you for your newsletters. I love them!
Zivah, I've seen submission fees justified because the lit mag actually PAYS writers. As you've seen, Dark Poets does not. Cui bono? Hmmm. We know the answer.
It’s all very suspicious.
I agree with you, Zivah. Highly suspicious!! Did you see the 2 links I posted [above] on The Dark Poets Prize (their 1st and 2nd contests)? They posted the names of more than 200 fee-paying contestants who received an "honorable mention" status. . . . 200+ . . .! That number would be preposterous for a serious lit mag. Tsk-tsk.
Yes. I mean, really? They’re coining it. Milking the cow.
Zivah, the only other place where you will see HUNDREDS of "Honorable Mentions" will be on those screenwriting contest platforms. And those platforms will soak an applicant for a $200 submission fee to the (ahem) "contest."
RE: ONE ART Editor Mark Danowsky's essay on "The Pros and Cons of Theme" - - - the craft articles I've written on how to fast-forward your career always warn poets not to take the bait of THEMES unless (a.) you already have a poem on hand that suits the theme or (b.) writing to this theme would fit your current WIP. Ask yourself: do I want to complete my book? Will taking on this challenge fit into my WIP? If not, skip it. There is a memorable line from Hawthorne's short story "The Artist of the Beautiful" that I've copied into my writer's journal. . . . . . . . . . . It mentions seeking "other prizes than the dusty one along the highway." . . . . . . . Too often a theme issue holds out the promise of a dusty prize on the highway, i.e., a time-waster that will generate an unrelated oddity that will never enhance your WIP. * * * Be focused on the themes in your WIP, not on fruitless distractions and weird prompts.
RE: Dark Poets Club & submission fees and contest fees - - - - check out the results of their 1st contest for the Dark Poets Prize (with 200+ Honorable Mentions, all of whom paid a $ FEE): https://www.darkpoets.club/dark-poets-prize-results . . . . . . .. Heh-heh! And this $ $ $ money grab was such a lucrative success that the Dark Poets Prize then had a 2nd round . . . . . . . once again please note the hundreds of names under Honorable Mentions again: https://www.darkpoets.club/edition-ii-results . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . Thank you always, Becky!
Darn 🦆 but thankyou for the warnings of what to look for in the future 🤦♀️😅
Meanjin only accepts Australian writers, no one else.
So much great information here, Becky. Thanks! (Again)
Becky, perhaps you should send your findings to Writer Beware (beware@sfwa.org). As you say, multiple red flags. Thanks for all your hard work.
OFF-TOPIC - - - - - Of note: Reported wait times at Lit-Mag and zines:
March 11, 2025
1 Rejection from Analog Science Fiction & Fact - Fiction (111 days)
1 Rejection from Black Fox Literary Magazine - Fiction (161 days)
March 10, 2025
2 Rejections from A Public Space - Fiction (ranging from 105 to 112 days)
1 Rejection from Acta Victoriana - Fiction (185 days)
3 Rejections from Analog Science Fiction & Fact - Fiction (ranging from 108 to 112 days)
7 Rejections from Apex Magazine - Fiction (ranging from 108 to 117 days)
* * * Source: Submission Grinder
Yikes, thanks for the red flag, Becky! I had no idea I was so freaking entitled to have people who probably know zero about writing, read my writing. I guess those agents I had were just a little ole fluke.
And the U.K. editors at Dark Poets referred to submission fees as a "sin." Venial sin? Or mortal sin? This is Lent, after all. LOL
They probably don't even know, Linda! lol
RE: Joffre Swait’s essay "Why I Never Submit to Literary Magazines." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OF NOTE: His book "Well Met: Poems of Companionship" (94 pgs) was self-published via Amazon's KDP in 2017. If your goal is to be self-published, then follow his advice. However, if you wish to be traditionally published, then most book publishers will want to see a certain number of lit-mag credits on your ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS page.
Great read.
I love “Ghosts” by Vauhini Vara. I’ve used it in various creative writing classes over the years. Students usually respond well to it. It generated interesting discussion when it first came out (I remember teaching it in fall 2021), before ChatGPT and everything was commonplace. But it’s a good example of how you can incorporate AI into creative writing in a meaningful way. I look forward to your interview with her!