Lev Raphael is the prize-winning author of 27 books in genres from memoir to mystery and has recently published essays and short stories in over 70 online and print journals. He's taught creative writing at Michigan State University and Regents College in London, and been invited to teach at Leipzig University in Germany.
This is painful to read because I have consistently not followed this advice. Dear fellow writers, do not believe the most critical reader and keep your readers few. I have been sabotaging myself for decades.
I'm sorry to hear this. It does happen too often to writers. I had a friend who was crushed when a friend of her said, "Why would you want to write that?" This "friend" was someone very critical in general and not a pleasant person to be around.
Thanks so much for this. I’ve been part of a tiny (there are only three of us) writing group for the last 2.5 years. I have an MFA, though earned many years ago, so I’m familiar with tough critiques. My group has mostly been a good thing for my short stories, but I’ve been working on a novel, and both times I brought sections to them, they didn’t “get” it. I tried 18 mo ago, and our session was such a letdown, it led me to set the work aside. However, I love the story, and so I picked it up again and after 100 pages I figured I’d give it another try with the group. Again, the response was lackluster. I felt they were uncomfortable. There are implied sexual elements they clearly didn’t want to address—nothing graphic, mind you! It’s hard to be excited about a work that doesn’t connect with people, but both of my group friends write work that is very different from mine. I had decided to keep my novel to myself, and now your piece reinforces that decision. Protect your work from the criticism of those who are not equipped to give you what you need.
I'm glad that helped and you're so right: people who aren't equipped to give you what you need as a writer are to be avoided. And whole workshops can miss what you're doing or not appreciate it. That was my experience with the story I mentioned.
Connie, C, I had a similar experience years ago. Great writing group for short stories/microprose; wrong group for novella commentary. In my case, I felt the error was mine; how could I expect them to comment on trajectory when we were structured to discuss only individual scenes? Shorter works were a better fit in this case.
This is such important, I would even say, critical advice for getting and giving feedback. Funny thing. I was about halfway through the essay when I thought Lev had written it. I even scrolled back up to check the byline.
Becky's post concentrated on feedback that feels harsh and harmful. But there are many other kinds of feedback that do not help, and that serious writers might want to avoid.
I took a workshop titled "Advanced Personal Essay Writing" in which both the instructor and the participants gushed over the essays submitted for feedback. People described in great detail how the piece made them feel and offered suggestions about what they wanted to know more about in the piece. Nothing craft-related! This was very disappointing to me because I'm at the stage where I want reactions to pacing, word choice, structure, etc. That's what I expected in an "advanced" workshop.
Another workshop leader actually chided me for offering constructive editing suggestions during a feedback round.
So, here's a tip. Find out the philosophy of feedback for a workshop or writing group. Is everyone expected to respond "Loved it! Loved it!" Or is there room for "Loved the concept, and here's how you can execute it even better"?
Thanks for the correction, Becky, and thanks again for your editing on this piece. I've had dozens of editors in print and online and always appreciate an editor who doesn't decide that the way to go is to overhaul the piece entirely so it fits *their* vision.
I would suggest that we define what we want in the way of feedback and that teachers/facilitators define how they will conduct sessions. Many times, in advanced and all-level groups, people who write excellent work have limited vocabulary and practice in giving strictly craft-focused feedback. Some of us are on the fence about whether that is, indeed, the single best form of feedback. For example, I knew a painter whose preference was to hear spontaneous feedback to her work, to include interpretation and emotional responses. I invite the same when receiving feedback on my poems. I also expect the teacher/facilitator to offer their more seasoned craft-based comments, if they have them. Meantime, editing is not always constructive. Depending on the stage at which the piece is presented, that may be more helpful later. Also, it may be unwelcome. It seems to me this discussion is less about what is the right kind of feedback to give and more about setting parameters and expectations fully before beginning.
I've consistently found writing classes - clear theme, small group, focused assignments, structured criticism - more satisfying and productive than workshops. I know the difference between the 2 can at times be subtle. For me it's the "we're here to learn about plot and practice what we learn" instead of "let's review each other's work" which tends to oscillate between bitchiness and sugar-coating. And yes, Lev, I agree: a small number of cooks in that kitchen is much better. I have 2 or 3, and the most helpful is my husband because he's brutally honest, and a great writer.
I really enjoy doing classes at writing cons here in Michigan and master classes too. They're fun and people seem to get a lot out of them because my reviews are consistently strong. I did also enjoy teaching CW at MSU, but they shoved 22, 25 and once even 30 students in a room and it was totally unfair to them.
"“Well,” he told me, “it's still shit, but it’s shit with a prize.” Today, his arrogance is almost funny. But back then, it was both needlessly hurtful and frankly on the edge of being scary."
I felt a gut punch when I read this, Becky. I don't know when you were in grad school...but my MFA program (early 80s) was run by three male writers who lethally competed among themselves and trammeled the other students...and if you happened to be a woman--ah! I can still hear their "witty" contempt. Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry this happened to you. So very happy this didn't derail you. And so pleased to be a witness to your success!
I have experienced directly and indirectly from my writing students and clients that there are professors who believe for whatever reason that they need to tear you down. And there are professors, mentors, editors, who want to help your work blossom. Luckily I had the latter in college so that was my foundation.
This was very timely and helpful for me. In the past, I’ve workshopped with writers who all just responded with “I love it” to every piece. So, I felt compelled to stay within those same constraints. I did choose to move on because it wasn’t worth the money to never give or receive the kind of feedback that moves writing forward. I’m currently workshopping with a group of writers who give a lot of the “this is how I feel about it” kind of feedback mixed with some specific ideas for improving structure, pacing, characterization, etc. While I’m definitely getting my money’s worth, it does feel a bit overwhelming at times to get so much conflicting advice. One says “love the ending “ while another says “cut that ending”. I have leaned toward going with my own gut and only taking the advice that settles peacefully with me. I’m hoping the other writers are doing the same with my suggestions. The most valuable advice I receive is when someone tells me a sentence or paragraph needs clarification because it’s confusing. If my intent is unclear or details don’t make sense, then I know that needs my attention.
Thanks so much for this very informative and encouraging advice. I needed this. I’m going to forge ahead in trusting my gut instincts. And if the work is declined a dozen times after that, I will resist the temptation to believe that it’s because I didn’t take all the advice I was given to chop it up. Wish me luck with that part. 🤣
Good advice! It's been 40 years since I've been a student in a workshop. I was lucky enough to study at Columbia in the 1980s with some amazing teachers, but even so, it was enough. The presumption in a workshop is that every work read to the group is unfinished and has something wrong with it. Also, work that makes the group uncomfortable in some way immediately gets a negative reaction. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough to make them useful to me. I do host an anti-workshop where a few of us chat each month and read our work. The theory is that if you read your work out loud to other people you will hear any real problems yourself and will figure it out. Most of the writers I've known have an editor close at hand, usually a spouse or significant other. (Often, this job is reciprocal.) This was a smart essay. Thank you!
You're welcome, and thanks for sharing your experiences. My spouse is a writer in other genres than mine and a keen-eyed editor. We also share a taste for biography and history if the writing and story-telling are strong. And we both pay attention to dialogue and narrative lines when we watch a movie or TV series.
This makes perfect sense. Whether it's intended or unintended, writers are going to be writing for some readers more than others, and not at all for some readers. With my own workshop experiences, it hasn't been a matter of mean or bad faith readers, but rather people whose life experiences (and this sometimes correlates to race, class, age, gender, and other demographic attrbutes) or whose reading experiences and preferences make them less than ideal readers for my work. People also think differently and are affected by their mood of the moment. Your intentions as a writer may not be clear as well, particularly with subtle things. But, on other hand, people can sometimes surprise you in a positive way.
As a book reviewer, I found "mood of the moment" often determined what I covered. And sometimes I'd put aside a book for later "just in case" and I'd discover my first impressions were wrong and it was much better than I'd thought.
I'll also add that finding those two or three beta readers whose critical input you have confidence in is not an easy thing for some of us. It's not just a matter of another writer having good intentions or being a friend of yours.
I so agree. When we start out, we might think that writers are a happy band, all pitching in for each other, but that's not always the case. Which is one reason there are so many novels about jealous writers. :-)
This is incredibly helpful. I'm just about to send a polished ms to three trusted beta readers and was considering what feedback to ask them for. The suggestions in this piece are perfect: focused and not overwhelming. Thank you so much!
Great article, Lev. Personally, I avoid writing groups altogether. They’re famous for destroying people’s confidence. I also avoid showing my work to friends, for the opposite reason: they’re afraid to hurt your feelings. The key is to find someone who is a successful writer, and who knows what a piece needs to be published. If you have to pay them something, all the better. You’ll be getting honest, professional advice.
Missing bio:
Lev Raphael is the prize-winning author of 27 books in genres from memoir to mystery and has recently published essays and short stories in over 70 online and print journals. He's taught creative writing at Michigan State University and Regents College in London, and been invited to teach at Leipzig University in Germany.
His website is https://writewithoutborders.com.
This is painful to read because I have consistently not followed this advice. Dear fellow writers, do not believe the most critical reader and keep your readers few. I have been sabotaging myself for decades.
I'm sorry to hear this. It does happen too often to writers. I had a friend who was crushed when a friend of her said, "Why would you want to write that?" This "friend" was someone very critical in general and not a pleasant person to be around.
Shifra, grow where you are planted. I have been gifted with 2 writers who make my Monday share day a joy.
Thanks so much for this. I’ve been part of a tiny (there are only three of us) writing group for the last 2.5 years. I have an MFA, though earned many years ago, so I’m familiar with tough critiques. My group has mostly been a good thing for my short stories, but I’ve been working on a novel, and both times I brought sections to them, they didn’t “get” it. I tried 18 mo ago, and our session was such a letdown, it led me to set the work aside. However, I love the story, and so I picked it up again and after 100 pages I figured I’d give it another try with the group. Again, the response was lackluster. I felt they were uncomfortable. There are implied sexual elements they clearly didn’t want to address—nothing graphic, mind you! It’s hard to be excited about a work that doesn’t connect with people, but both of my group friends write work that is very different from mine. I had decided to keep my novel to myself, and now your piece reinforces that decision. Protect your work from the criticism of those who are not equipped to give you what you need.
I'm glad that helped and you're so right: people who aren't equipped to give you what you need as a writer are to be avoided. And whole workshops can miss what you're doing or not appreciate it. That was my experience with the story I mentioned.
Connie, C, I had a similar experience years ago. Great writing group for short stories/microprose; wrong group for novella commentary. In my case, I felt the error was mine; how could I expect them to comment on trajectory when we were structured to discuss only individual scenes? Shorter works were a better fit in this case.
Hopefully we can find people to help us who have a wide range, but that's not essential.
This is such important, I would even say, critical advice for getting and giving feedback. Funny thing. I was about halfway through the essay when I thought Lev had written it. I even scrolled back up to check the byline.
Good detective work! Becky has fixed the byline.
Ditto! I knew it was by Lev even without the byline.
That made me grin. Thanks for the pick-me-up this morning!
Becky's post concentrated on feedback that feels harsh and harmful. But there are many other kinds of feedback that do not help, and that serious writers might want to avoid.
I took a workshop titled "Advanced Personal Essay Writing" in which both the instructor and the participants gushed over the essays submitted for feedback. People described in great detail how the piece made them feel and offered suggestions about what they wanted to know more about in the piece. Nothing craft-related! This was very disappointing to me because I'm at the stage where I want reactions to pacing, word choice, structure, etc. That's what I expected in an "advanced" workshop.
Another workshop leader actually chided me for offering constructive editing suggestions during a feedback round.
So, here's a tip. Find out the philosophy of feedback for a workshop or writing group. Is everyone expected to respond "Loved it! Loved it!" Or is there room for "Loved the concept, and here's how you can execute it even better"?
Thanks Marcia, quick correction: This piece was written by Lev Raphael.
My apologies, Becky. In my in-box "Becky Tuch" appears in the author spot on the post and there is no bio at the end of the post for anyone else.
I know it's not your fault, it's mine! I've corrected the byline.
Thanks for the correction, Becky, and thanks again for your editing on this piece. I've had dozens of editors in print and online and always appreciate an editor who doesn't decide that the way to go is to overhaul the piece entirely so it fits *their* vision.
I would suggest that we define what we want in the way of feedback and that teachers/facilitators define how they will conduct sessions. Many times, in advanced and all-level groups, people who write excellent work have limited vocabulary and practice in giving strictly craft-focused feedback. Some of us are on the fence about whether that is, indeed, the single best form of feedback. For example, I knew a painter whose preference was to hear spontaneous feedback to her work, to include interpretation and emotional responses. I invite the same when receiving feedback on my poems. I also expect the teacher/facilitator to offer their more seasoned craft-based comments, if they have them. Meantime, editing is not always constructive. Depending on the stage at which the piece is presented, that may be more helpful later. Also, it may be unwelcome. It seems to me this discussion is less about what is the right kind of feedback to give and more about setting parameters and expectations fully before beginning.
I agree: Feedback and editing are definitely not the same thing.
I've consistently found writing classes - clear theme, small group, focused assignments, structured criticism - more satisfying and productive than workshops. I know the difference between the 2 can at times be subtle. For me it's the "we're here to learn about plot and practice what we learn" instead of "let's review each other's work" which tends to oscillate between bitchiness and sugar-coating. And yes, Lev, I agree: a small number of cooks in that kitchen is much better. I have 2 or 3, and the most helpful is my husband because he's brutally honest, and a great writer.
I really enjoy doing classes at writing cons here in Michigan and master classes too. They're fun and people seem to get a lot out of them because my reviews are consistently strong. I did also enjoy teaching CW at MSU, but they shoved 22, 25 and once even 30 students in a room and it was totally unfair to them.
"“Well,” he told me, “it's still shit, but it’s shit with a prize.” Today, his arrogance is almost funny. But back then, it was both needlessly hurtful and frankly on the edge of being scary."
I felt a gut punch when I read this, Becky. I don't know when you were in grad school...but my MFA program (early 80s) was run by three male writers who lethally competed among themselves and trammeled the other students...and if you happened to be a woman--ah! I can still hear their "witty" contempt. Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry this happened to you. So very happy this didn't derail you. And so pleased to be a witness to your success!
Thank you, Therese. Just a quick correction: The author of this piece is Lev Raphael, not me.
Lev, everything I said to Becky I say to you. You overcame a monstrous assault to your writing ego. Bravo!
Thanks. I owe a lot to my writing mentor mentioned in the piece and her belief in me. I kept going.
I have experienced directly and indirectly from my writing students and clients that there are professors who believe for whatever reason that they need to tear you down. And there are professors, mentors, editors, who want to help your work blossom. Luckily I had the latter in college so that was my foundation.
This was very timely and helpful for me. In the past, I’ve workshopped with writers who all just responded with “I love it” to every piece. So, I felt compelled to stay within those same constraints. I did choose to move on because it wasn’t worth the money to never give or receive the kind of feedback that moves writing forward. I’m currently workshopping with a group of writers who give a lot of the “this is how I feel about it” kind of feedback mixed with some specific ideas for improving structure, pacing, characterization, etc. While I’m definitely getting my money’s worth, it does feel a bit overwhelming at times to get so much conflicting advice. One says “love the ending “ while another says “cut that ending”. I have leaned toward going with my own gut and only taking the advice that settles peacefully with me. I’m hoping the other writers are doing the same with my suggestions. The most valuable advice I receive is when someone tells me a sentence or paragraph needs clarification because it’s confusing. If my intent is unclear or details don’t make sense, then I know that needs my attention.
Thanks so much for this very informative and encouraging advice. I needed this. I’m going to forge ahead in trusting my gut instincts. And if the work is declined a dozen times after that, I will resist the temptation to believe that it’s because I didn’t take all the advice I was given to chop it up. Wish me luck with that part. 🤣
You're welcome! Go with your gut.
A great reminder to keep our shields up, and beam a trusted few inside.
Thanks, and I love writing for Lit Mag News.
Good advice! It's been 40 years since I've been a student in a workshop. I was lucky enough to study at Columbia in the 1980s with some amazing teachers, but even so, it was enough. The presumption in a workshop is that every work read to the group is unfinished and has something wrong with it. Also, work that makes the group uncomfortable in some way immediately gets a negative reaction. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough to make them useful to me. I do host an anti-workshop where a few of us chat each month and read our work. The theory is that if you read your work out loud to other people you will hear any real problems yourself and will figure it out. Most of the writers I've known have an editor close at hand, usually a spouse or significant other. (Often, this job is reciprocal.) This was a smart essay. Thank you!
You're welcome, and thanks for sharing your experiences. My spouse is a writer in other genres than mine and a keen-eyed editor. We also share a taste for biography and history if the writing and story-telling are strong. And we both pay attention to dialogue and narrative lines when we watch a movie or TV series.
So much of this resonated with me, Lev! I'm always glad to have it confirmed for me by a better and better-published writer.
I'm glad it spoke to you.
This makes perfect sense. Whether it's intended or unintended, writers are going to be writing for some readers more than others, and not at all for some readers. With my own workshop experiences, it hasn't been a matter of mean or bad faith readers, but rather people whose life experiences (and this sometimes correlates to race, class, age, gender, and other demographic attrbutes) or whose reading experiences and preferences make them less than ideal readers for my work. People also think differently and are affected by their mood of the moment. Your intentions as a writer may not be clear as well, particularly with subtle things. But, on other hand, people can sometimes surprise you in a positive way.
As a book reviewer, I found "mood of the moment" often determined what I covered. And sometimes I'd put aside a book for later "just in case" and I'd discover my first impressions were wrong and it was much better than I'd thought.
I'll also add that finding those two or three beta readers whose critical input you have confidence in is not an easy thing for some of us. It's not just a matter of another writer having good intentions or being a friend of yours.
I so agree. When we start out, we might think that writers are a happy band, all pitching in for each other, but that's not always the case. Which is one reason there are so many novels about jealous writers. :-)
This is incredibly helpful. I'm just about to send a polished ms to three trusted beta readers and was considering what feedback to ask them for. The suggestions in this piece are perfect: focused and not overwhelming. Thank you so much!
Happy to help, and good luck with your ms.!
Great advice, Lev. Thanks for this!
You're most welcome. I really enjoy the discussion here and what people are sharing.
Great essay, Lev
Thanks!!
Great article, Lev. Personally, I avoid writing groups altogether. They’re famous for destroying people’s confidence. I also avoid showing my work to friends, for the opposite reason: they’re afraid to hurt your feelings. The key is to find someone who is a successful writer, and who knows what a piece needs to be published. If you have to pay them something, all the better. You’ll be getting honest, professional advice.
Yes, and that pro had better be able to balance honesty with helpfulness.