192 Comments

Roasted and toasted! You’re much nicer than me when it comes to giving Narrative the benefit of the doubt.

A couple years ago, a writing group that helped me launch my writing career sent out info about how great this magazine is, and I was naive enough to take the bait. The writing group was run by NYTimes best selling authors, so I started sending my work out to all the magazines and anthologies they suggested. Narrative was my very first submission. I paid $25 to submit a flash CNF piece. Then I spent $15 to submit a six word sentence. I never got a response for either of those. At the time, I was also foolishly paying $3 to $7 submission fees for all the mags suggested to me by that writing group. It took about three months of that before I woke up and realized what a nightmare I had been having. Another crazy thing about Narrative— I tried a dozen times over the past couple years to unsubscribe from their emails which were filled with ads for expensive workshop run by the editor.🤬 Last month, I was finally able to successfully unsubscribe from that trash filling my inbox.

Sometimes I think it would be fun to have a reunion of everyone who ever submitted to Narrative. We could have our own free contest for six word sentences on the theme of getting scammed.

Here’s mine:

Sorry suckers sadly scammed rise up. 🤓🤣

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Tracie, I recall seeing your comment before: that you once paid a $15 fee to submit an entry for a six-word sentence & you never ever got a REPLY. Tsk tsk tsk. . . . . . . Tom Jenks, the pilot of this seaworthy pirate ship, must be laughing himself to sleep every night. Years ago he wrote one good short story for Esquire and has been blood-sucking the experience ever since. P.T. Barnum's quote must be suspended from his desk lamp.

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You got robbed by the MFA mafia!!!

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Very clever you are, Nolo. (applause) Unfortunately, the roving lit-mag bandits began infiltrating this community well before the Internet was around. It started in Academia, with English Dep't predators; they charged high submission fees for annual poetry book contests whose winners were pre-selected, for example. This was the investigative focus of http://foetry.com/

(crimes against poetry)

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The fact that they did not reduce the fee for a flash fiction entry—or give you the chance to submit three for the price—is a sign that $ is their priority. I’m generally against submission fees, or have a range from wary to against, even while I know how prevalent the practice is. But Narrative is all about money and the advancement of its editors.

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***** Amy, my question is: Have any writers who have submitted to Narrative and similar ego-milking scam "contests" by similar lit-mags learned anything today???

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This is absolutely shocking. But what a superb piece of investigative reporting! You should send this to Writer's Digest, Poets and Writers, and every other publication directed at emerging and established writers. I will sign on as a paid subscriber to Lit Mag News now. Many thanks!

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That is disgusting behavior on the part of Narrative. I am shocked by editors’ compensation, but more shocked that they arrogantly declined to find winners for their contest and offer no explanation.

My magazine lost money on its last contest. Why? Because we paid our judge $1000 and $850 in prizes. We also paid two of the genre editors a small honorarium (because they pre-read and met at length about the entries) and paid the contest manager for her significant work in managing all the submissions. That put us at a loss— but our contest was a success in that it elevated many writers— we celebrated all of the semifinalists, finalists, and honorable mentions, in addition to the three prize winners.

As EOC of my magazine I take NO compensation for my extensive admin work. We do compensate a few staff who do admin work, and pay our workshop teachers well. Our end-of-year P & L statement puts us in the black by $6K, but with my unpaid labor (and the unpaid editorial labor of our staff), that is not much. Because it is expensive and hard to run a magazine that celebrates writers. This is why so many small magazines fold.

My main worry is whether I will be able to secure a successor (eventually— I’m not going anywhere soon) who can afford to work for little or no compensation. My other option is to find an away to make enough profit to fairly compensate the EOC admin labor.

[edit] I’ll also add that, like many magazines, we count on grant funding for part of our operating expenses and I’m worried about the future availability of grants in the current political climate.

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Karen I was one of those people who was elevated by your contest. As a semi-finalist it meant so much to me to be included in your literary conversation and to listen in and read the others.

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Thank you, Barrett! Your comment means a lot to me!

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Yes, Karen, in our greedy times it must be hard to find those for a 'labor of love'. But they're out there-- I have been working as a volunteer editor for a fine Midwest lit mag that's in its 4th decade, and I'm far from the only one. Best of luck!

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Greed and soul never mix…

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Thank you Becky for your brilliant exposé of Narrative and their avarice. Looking at the income chart you provided, I conjecture they made some money by leaning into the pandemic, taking advantage of lots of new writers, took their money until those new writers got smart, and now they feel the squeeze. A perfect reason to run a crap contest in this era of unquenchable greed.

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I crossed Narrative off my list several years ago because of their high fees. Ripoff, sez I.

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Wasn't there some controversy a few years ago about possible fixing of their short story contest to make Gina Oschner the winner? I don't know her and maybe the rumor is unfair, but yeah, they've always been a shady operation. Thanks for thoroughly outlining all this, Becky.

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If I ran a rigged lit contest, I would make sure my wife (not a writer) won, using her maiden name of course!

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Thanks for the break-down / take-down, Becky. A friend of mine has had work published by Narrative. BUT she did not pay any submission fee as far as I know because Tom Jenks solicited her story (which is, incidentally, very good). He solicited it because she had attended a workshop with him in San Francisco. I don't know what she paid for the workshop apart from her telling me it was a major splurge. Jenks's website doesn't list the prices for his workshops. But they are undoubtedly just more gravy flowing into the industry that is Tom Jenks and Narrative Mag. I wonder how much, if any, of what they publish is unsolicited???

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Yes. I went so far as to a have free consult with Tom Jenks before committing to one of his expensive workshops. Ultimately I decided not to do the workshop. I felt he was too certain that he knew what was “good.”I’ve had a lot male editor/workshop leaders who were certain they knew what is “good.” About 8 years ago I decided as a creative person that I was done with all such authoritative stances on imaginative work. And at about the same time I got wise to this magazine and it’s ridiculous fees. I became convinced that Jenks and his team publish work from his workshops. It all smells rotten and I never submit there. It took me a while to get off their subscription list, as was true for another commenter, but I finally did. I prefer the excitement and dedication of newer publications. Like DoesItHavePockets or Pithead Chapel, online endeavors that seem to truly want to showcase new, good work. More than make money. Becky your research is astonishing here. It sickens me.

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I love Does It Have Pockets. Full disclosure. I have had a piece published by them.

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I also love Does It Have Pockets! Beguiling ...

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I believe that 'creation' by definition cannot be programmed or taught or 'learned'-it happens or it does not. The Bard, Blake, Emily, Dickens, Tolstoy, Hemingway, none of them ever paid for a workshop rip-off.

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Amen!

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Many years ago I had a phone conversation with him about the workshop and at that time it was $12,000 for 4 days.

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Gulp!

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I guess the question to ask Mr. Jenks is, would she have won if she hadn't attended the workshop and had instead submitted through normal channels?

That's the advantage of outside judges, especially if the judges don't have any awareness of the writer's creds or relationship to the editors.

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Oh wow. This is beyond greedy. I’ve only ever submitted to them during their free windows in April. (And I still get inundated with emails…) I don’t understand why they can’t just name a winner. Or, at the very least, divide the original prize $$ amongst the 10 finalists instead of only giving them $100 each.

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Huh, clearly I've been going about this all wrong :P

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Hahaha!

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Ditto. Dang, you mean we could have been raking it in this whole time?!

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I just put up a post that I'd love your opinion on... it's related

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haha indeed

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Yeah, Mark-- you could have funded your retirement by now-- or maybe bought a yacht! [Of course, on the other hand your soul would have paid a price.]

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From the Narrative masthead :

"There’s a writer born every minute."

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There's a sucker born every minute, too, they assume.

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That’s funny how precariously close they made that sentence to the famous sucker one.

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Actually, I was joking. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

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Oh, too bad. It is funny.

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:O

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I just read some other comments and would like to second the request that you send this to Writers Digest or Poets and Writers. If they won't publish what has appeared on a blog, I would change some of the language and augment this already wonderful piece with some of the comments/quotes people are providing here...and send it in. These criminals need to be exposed, and they are criminals, and I'm sure WD and PW would be interested, or they should be.

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Wow. Thank you.

I haven't submitted to Narrative—$26 is much too high for a single submission—and now I wouldn't go near it.

I don't submit to contests because they're an expensive crap shoot.

I have paid submission fees in the single digits, sadly, but I liked the magazines and would like to see my work there, so I pay the small fees.

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I'm curious, Debby-- what % you think of the ones you paid fees to actually accepted your work?

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It's extremely rare that I'll pay a submission fee, and almost never if I don't get paid for an acceptance, especially if there's no "perk", like an interview, a free subscription, etc. But I'd never submit to Narrative because their cost is too steep, and I'm not a shoo-in. $3 per submission is one thing; what costs $3 these days? $26 is a meal. Half a tank of gas or more. Perhaps an egg.

I've read incredible stories from all levels of writers in all kinds of magazines, from top-tier classics to brand-new indies. I find it VERY hard to believe not a SINGLE story was worth the prize, even with editing.

I agree with Tracie, I applaud your dedication to research and thank you for it.

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🥚🤣

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Came here to say this 😆

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I quit submitting years ago. My frustration with them is a bit different, though you thoroughly covered the issues. I was naively submitting when I noticed that the winner of the contest one year was Janet Burroway. Back when I taught writing, I used her textbooks for the basis of my classes. I have nothing against Janet Burroway earning money and recognition. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. I personally bought four of her textbooks and was responsible for hundreds of students buying it. I guess I was discouraged that someone who made a lot of money from teaching and publishing would compete with me. That somehow seems wrong. I'm not articulating this well. Maybe someone on here can help me. LOL. It didn't sit well with me.

I have been unable to unsubscribe.

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In defense of Janet Burroway— she won second prize, which was a very small prize— in our flash contest (!!) It was blindly judged, and when we saw her name, we thought someone was yanking our chains. But it was really her. She came to our virtual reading and was delightful.

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When I am her age, I hope I’m still trying new things— flash is a new genre to her!

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Off-topic. Nothing to do with Ellie Anderson's main point.

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I don’t see how it’s off-topic. Janet Burroway may well have submitted through normal channels as she did to us. And I’m not starstruck. What an insulting thing to say.

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I've removed the "star-struck" comment from this thread.

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Thanks, Becky. I am still smarting from being scolded by two people here that my comments are “off topic” and I am “star-struck..” Seriously? I was being polite in a public forum. When the author in question won second prize in our contest we were surprised. My point was, the contest was judged blindly. It was her first publication in that particular genre. To preserve my dignity I will add that I know plenty of well-known authors, musicians, etc. and am not in the habit of name dropping. I have actively discouraged friends who are well-published from submitting to our contest (which they have offered to do to be supportive. My comment was on-topic. I am surprised at the comment-policing happening on a forum devoted to literary magazines.

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I understood your point, Karen. Sometimes the most benign-seeming comments lead to unexpected escalation, and I am never sure why. Hopefully we can all redirect attention toward the lit mags and editors doing real damage, and not the ones like you who kindly show up on this site to participate and make their own processes more transparent.

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You did nothing wrong, Karen-- in a blind judging God could have entered, and no doubt won, but you'd still have to give Him the prize-- cause, after all, who is going to write better than God?

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I think I understand (though I hadn't really thought about it until your comment): when people have advanced farther in their career that when they put their well known name into a pool where many much-lesser known authors who may have just as sound talent, end up taking space from people who don't have access to larger spaces, all the while having access to those larger spaces so still having the opportunity to showcase and profit from their talent if they abstained from where people submit to the general slushpile--most certainly helped along in advantage over others with their name and previous success--it maybe feels unfair or selfish, or at least not respectful or thinking of other writers and how we each take up space?

I'm not sure if I said that right or jammed too much into one sentence.

Do you think it would help how you feel about it if they submitted under a pseudonym so at least their work is considered on an even playing field?

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Thank you for adding to what I was trying to say. And I DID NOT mean to say anything demeaning about Janet Burroway. I greatly admire her writing. I still use her textbooks after all these years. And she has every right to compete wherever she wants. For me, that was just a disheartening experience.

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I heard you. I didn't hear a single put down or demeaning of Janet Burroway rather than a dissection and analysis of something you were struggling to put into words. My take away from your original comment was you making sure to say that you weren't demeaning her and do respect her work. I'm sorry you were misunderstood.

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As a published writer, I eschew contests of any kind given their high submission fees and less likely chance of "winning." Also, if literary magazines are rife with typographical errors, writing that does not suit my genre of nonfiction or my own writing style, I usually cross them off my list. Themed issues are different, and I may or may not consider submitting depending on the topic.

That said, all literary magazines including Narrative should be absolutely transparent about fees, contests, etc. When they are not, they should be definitely held accountable. But how? Perhaps notifying the Community of Literary Magazines and Presses, Poets & Writers, Craft Magazine, Submittable, etc., about this betrayal of trust and respect for writers and their submissions. After all, Narrative would most likely not exist without writers like us!

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As the article shows, they ARE transparent in their greed, I mean guidelines. But I do like your idea of smearing their name everywhere we can.

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Also, consider Scribophile, which often offers calls for submissions, etc.

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Yes, over 30 years ago I paid a great deal of money to be humiliated and cut to ribbons in one of his expensive classes. Most of the people in the classes at that time were middle-aged women who hoped to develop their writing. Supposedly he was the only person who knew what good writing was – put that in quotes— and the seduction of learning from “the best“ was strong for naïve writers who were just starting out. His comments were frequently cruel, not only to me, but to other people, I think most of them were women. It’s unfortunate that 30 years have gone by and they’re still doing the same damn thing. They have a great double act going, and it’s really unconscionable.

Great essay by the way!

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The thing is, the evil minded prey on the insecure, those who don't believe in themselves. NOBODY can teach creativity, anymore than 'love' can be taught. Con men only get away with it because their 'marks' want an easy way, be it the 'sure thing' bet, a 'win' on a lottery you never bought, or a very expensive 'workshop' that purports how to write immortal words [and that is why the bastard made his class feel like losers, to gain control and power--and maybe feed his own sick ego.] In other words, talent cannot be taught, nor bought-- it's there, or it's not.

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