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So what comes next? A requirement that all writers and editors declare in full their position on every major political and social issue, as well as any inherent biases they may have against certain types of writing, writers etc? And would that be any better than the current trend to 'disappear' writers who have failed to leap onto the correct bandwagons? Madness lies both ways.
Besides, if writers disagree with current political leanings, they can make their own litmag as done throughout litmag history. Same with genre and style.
The best solution is for magazines themselves to have clearly defined political leanings then editors and writers can decide if they are a fit. Kinda like how Google as a company is liberal but not necessarily everyone within it is aligned with that, but understands going in that’s what the company is about and have the option of staying or leaving.
Personal political passions have been riling up the American workplace well before the latest conflict. Everything from the McCarthy anti-communist crusade, the Vietnam War, all the way to BLM, and, now, Israel vs. Palestine. Think about it: all this violent rhetoric is just mirroring the dehumanizing of the "other". It would really benefit the literary combatants to calm down and take a time out before acting precipitously.
Your comment also raises the question of when writers have an obligation to speak out on moral issues and whether literature can change minds, widen the window of permitted conversation, or even save lives. Or whether writers should stay from matters that involve difficult political and social questions, or that will inflame and invite backlash. The answer obviously isn't going to be the same for everyone and isn't going to be the same in all situations. But my guess is that a lot of people who didn't speak out in the McCarthy era, when the Viet Nam and civil rights protests were beginning, or against South Africa's apartheid later wished that they had.
If we consider musicians writers, then they did speak out against war. Writers have no particular obligation one way or another to write on current events, but if they do it’s because they are passionate in doing so
Thanks for that great display of humanity. Actually I know two families who lost children in the massacre, so in fact it is about me, my relatives and friends. In contrast to your mistaken assertion (purposeful?) that all that's being said is "Israel, we charge you with genocide" there are well documented antisemitic actions that have occurred on campuses see today's Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/11/campus-anti-semitism-hamas-war/675991/ and I could quote or provide links to other articles such as the Jerusalem Post https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-770475 . I do notice that you mention nothing about the massacre and kidnapping of Jewish children, so apparently you have no concerns about those acts, or the Hamas charter which calls for Jewish genocide. And please, you know nothing of me, what training I've had in the conflict, what I've experienced, or done, so don't bother telling me what I should and shouldn't care about and stop your ad hominem attacks. Human rights work both ways. In fact I am very concerned about civilian casualties in Gaza and mourn the fact that Hamas uses civilians as shields as documented in this NATO report https://stratcomcoe.org/.../pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf . "A broad swathe..." of Germans demanded the extinction of the Jews, so arguments about popular opinion are particularly irrelevant to issues of human rights.
We all need to be very careful of what we say now and what media we refer to as "authoritative". I am very sorry for the losses experienced by the two families you know personally, Gary. It is a tragedy. I know a writer with four children in Gaza and she, a primary school teacher, has lost numerous of her beloved small students in the Israeli bombardments. My fellow literary translator Khalid mourns the deaths of family members in Gaza and lives every day far away from them in Europe fearing that the rest will be wiped out by an Israeli bomb or shot dead in the street by Israeli soldiers. So we both know victims. But our personal feelings for the people we know and their suffering do not make either of us more or less authoritative on the matter of what is actually going on in this hideous conflict. The article you cite in The Jerusalem Post is particularly egregious in stating that ralliles calling for an end to 70 years of Palestinian suffering are anti-semitic. They are not, rather they are human rights rallies protesting the fact that for generations Palestinians there have been born, lived, and died within an open-air prison. Many Jewish groups, congregations, and denominations who are also loudly calling for a ceasefire. Jews for Justice are very vocal on social media are are calling for a cease fire immediately and filled Grand Central Station last week, keeping the trains from running. Norman Finklestein, the Jewish political scientist, is clearly calling out the US, Britain, and Israel. Listen to him here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=kY9fdWz1mGI . You can listen to reporters from Gaza talking about the Gazan tragedy and the genocide, human rights workers telling us about entire families wiped out. See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4g0c8T6mZw UNICEF, Doctors Without Border, Human Rights Watch and numerous international human rights organizations confirm the vast death toll, including over 3500 children, and the human rights abuses that continue to occur on the ground in Gaza. Yes, antisemitism is real. So is racism. So is mimsogyny, which is responsible for millenia of women's suffering and death, and so is the ongoing oppression and genocide of the Palestinians, proud descendents of the ancient Canaanites. I recommend that you watch Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, co-founder of Jewish Voices for Labor, talk about what it's like to be threatened, harassed, and called a "kapo" by fellow Jews for supporting the rights of Palestinians (listen to her here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw). One of the biggest problems the Jewish community faces is the insistence by both Jews and non-Jews that it is just one, big undiferentiated block. This is one of the typical tropes of all forms of racism and it is being perpetuated, ironically, by many Jews who fear antisemitism. Increasing numbers of people in the international Jewish community understand this and are speaking out, not only against the violence but also against the wicked accusations that they are "self-hating Jews" for opposing the genocide of the Palestinian people. They deserve to be listened to.
I am very suspicious of blacklists and particularly blacklists of entire organizations. We need to be very careful with such broad-brush accusations. PEN America has over 7, 500 members who do extremely good work protecting writers, fighting censorship, and introducing world literary voices to Americans. I am a member of PEN America and I am not a Zionist. While there are indeed pro-Zionist elements in PEN, they are hardly in the majority.
I’m working on litmags within my general circle and seeing who is publically pro-Palestine. Editors do swap out with large magazines so then would political views.
As an older person of the Jewish faith, whose grandparents left Russia because family members were killed in pogroms, and as someone who lost five family members in the Holocaust, I can't believe we've come to this. Graduate students ripping down posters of kidnapped kids, students chanting kill the Jews, and lit mag folks insisting it's just about colonialism. It feels very much like Germany in 1936. The saddest thing is so few of these protestors and BDS folks actually know much about the history of the conflict, because, well, it's not really about facts is it? And deep down, it's not really about Israel either, it's just about that millennia old racism called antisemitism.
You must be watching Fox News because what you are asserting here is false. The chant uttered during recent demonstrations is being misrepresented in the right wing media and it would be helpful if you didn't feed the disinformation machine in this space. Protestors aren’t saying “We want Jewish genocide,” but “Israel, we charge you with genocide.” It is a typical refrain heard at pro-Palestinian rallies. Secondly, your ancestors' suffering is really terrible, but kindly remember that these protests are not about you or your ancestors. A broad swathe of the public is demanding a cease fire and an end to Israel's mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Let me repeat: This is not about you and no one cares that you are Jewish. It is about thousands upon thousands of dead children and innocent adults, crushed, bloodied, and murdered by the U.S., British, and Israeli war machine. Over 40 reporters and photographers have been deliberately assassinated in Gaza. That is what you should care about.
Just a note, D.P. I care that Gary is Jewish. There are fewer Jews in the world today that 100 years ago because of eliminationist anti-Semitic expulsions, organized State sponsored mass murders and pogroms. The voice of a people whose history includes a thousand years of such should be at least listened to.
And yes, you are correct, “We want Jewish genocide,” was never chanted. It was “Israel, we charge you with genocide.”
That's fine, Dick. I understand what you are saying and it is well known that the Jewish people have suffered tremendously throughout history as have other populations, like enslaved Africans and the indigenous people of the Americas. What I mean is that his being Jewish has nothing whatsoever to do with the ongoing protests of mass genocide in Gaza and that is the topic we are discussing. Also, there are about 16.1 million Jews in the world today; at the end of the 19th century there were less than 10 million. So there are actually more Jews in the world today than there were 100 years ago, despite all the horrific barbarity against the Jews in the 20th century. It is crucial that we cleave to facts at times like these.
With all due respect, I'm not sure what your point is. If you're saying that antisemitism is bad and evil, I agree. But if you're saying that antisemitism, the Holocaust, or the Oct. 7 Hamas crimes gives Israel license to impose a disproportionate retaliation that may turn out to be ethnic cleansing or a near genocide, well, I'd have to disagree. I also don't think past crimes and antisemitism justifies penalizing or silencing writers or students who today criticize Israel's policies against the Palestinians or call for a cease fire in Gaza. BTW, if you haven't done so already, I'd encourage you to read the letter by Jewish writers, published in n+1, that recognizes the evil of antisemitism but objects to its conflation with criticism of Israel. Here is the link:
I'm not sure if you're responding to me or not but we weren't talking about disproportionate responses, what we were talking about was people being silenced and frankly I agree, no one should be silenced. But that includes both pro- and anti-zionists. In case you think there are no attempts to silence pro-zionists. However, demanding that a literary publication take a political stand on a political position is inappropriate in my view, and of course silences those with opposing views. The link to the Writer's for Palestine document that identifies pro-Israel publications is a clear example of trying to silence those with opposing views. Do you support that? The whole BDS campaign is based on trying to silence those supporting Israel, albeit certainly protected under free speech. I get tired of refuting the misuse of the term genocide so I'll let that pass. And I've never claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, although, frankly, much of it is. I think the letter you cited presents much inaccurate information, well distorted information, especially the claim that Israel practices apartheid, and I notice that Judith Butler, one of the founders of the BDS movement is a signee, which for me, is the icing on the negative cake.
So long as the parties of God have a veto on the solution in Israel/Palestine there will never be peace. There will never be compromise. The killing is based on two religions, each of which claim a holy warrant on the same territory, and they kill each other over Bronze Age scrolls written before we knew the Earth went around the sun and the pronouncements of an illiterate desert wizard. Which one of these sides do you want to back? There is enough atrocity to go around, and all of it is done in the name of religion.
Thanks for your tone. I don't really want to belabor this discussion, because although we have sympathies for both sides in this horrible conflict. You don't know my background and I don't know yours. Nonetheless, statements like "But our personal feelings for the people we know and their suffering do not make either of us more or less authoritative on the matter of what is actually going on in this hideous conflict. " are not accurate given that I have done two fellowships in Middle Eastern studies, have extensive training in the history of the conflict, have met with both Israeli and Palestinian Peace negotiators, and have friends in both Israel and Gaza. Where we differ is in attributing the horrible conditions the Palestinians face to Israel (you) versus mostly the Palestinian leadership and terrorist groups (me). You cite only sources that serve your argument such as the widely criticized Norman Finkelstein who claims the Holocaust is a crutch used by Jewish groups for political gain, and JVP and others who deny the right of Jews to have their own state despite their residence there for millennia (Jerusalem has been a majority city since 1840, Sfat and Tiberias since the '20s). You also ignore the much better lives that Israeli Arabs have in comparison to Arabs in any neighboring country (did you know the majority of pharmacists in Israel are Arab). I could go on, but I won't, other than to say that much of the opposition to Jews in Israel and the existence of the state, is in fact, antisemitic, regardless of whether it comes from people ripping down posters of kidnapped Israeli children, protestors chanting statements that call for ethnic cleansing of Jews, or members of JVP. Just a few choice tidbits of antisemitic outbursts after the 7 October massacre (these are all verifiable via a quick Google search): 1) protestors outside the Sydney Opera House chanted "gas the Jews", 2) BLM was quick to use a graphic depicting Hamas terrorists on paragliders as a symbol of resistance, 3) George Washington University students projected the words “Glory to Our Martyrs” and “Free Palestine from the River to the Sea” in giant letters on campus buildings, 4) Jewish students at Cooper Union in NYC had to hide in the library from a mob pounding on the door, 5) several academics have publicly come out in favor of the Hamas action calling it "awesome" (Prof. Joseph Massad) and "energizing" (Russell Rickford) and 6) even the FBI has noted a horrific increase in antisemitic acts in the US. You ignore the role of racism/antisemitism in the conflict even though it was wide-spread in Palestine during the British Mandate (Arab pogroms of the '20's and the Arab boycott of Jews (1936-1939), and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a friend of Hitlers and spent much of WWII in Berlin. I don't really have time to answer every one of your claims, and yes we live in a country where we have freedom of speech, so even antisemitic speech is protected. But if one claims to be a human rights you can't sit silent while antisemitism flourishes in a movement and yet sit silent when it happens.
1. "Unverified footage shared by the Australian Jewish Association and featured on Sky News appeared to show a small group outside the Opera House lighting flares and chanting "gas the Jews"." - Reuters. Key word, "unverified"
2. BLM is not an organization, so it didn't "use" any footage. BLM is a decentralized movement.
3. The call "From the river to the sea" is not antisemitic. The call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s and was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine . Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes and that they would cease to be treated like second-class citizens.
4. It is absolutely wrong if Jewish students were threatened at Cooper Union. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
5. There is no defense for calling an attack on human beings "awesome". That said, Dr. Massad's apparent insensitivity doesn not reflect on the Palestinian people or on those who support their right to freedom and safety.
6. Anti-semitism is horrible. (I can't believe I even have to state this, but the tone of this thread demands such clarity.) Also, charges of antisemitism are being leveled at people who do not support the actions of the state of Israel, which is just silly. Israel is kidnapping writers, killing journalists (almost fifty dead now, many of them deliberately targeted). So where, my writing friend, do you stand on the killing of writers, reporters, photographers, and poets? Because the state of Israel is deeply engaged in that activity.
Please don't bang us over the head with your fellowships and academic credentials. You have no idea who you're talking to.
After this post I'm done with discussing this with you, because you simply ignore or dispute every bit of evidence that contravenes your world view that Israel (yes a country full of Jews and Arabs, and the only Jewish state in the world as opposed to the 58 other countries that have state religions) is at fault for everything. In addition, you continue to deny that antisemitism plays a substantial role in both the conflict and the demonstrators of today. Also, you make specious claims that Israel targets and kills "writers, reporters, photographers, and poets." without any documentation or qualification, as if Israel goes into the West Bank and says line up the writers because we have to kill them. Again, in case you need reminding Israel is the sole country in the Middle East where there is freedom of the press and Arabs serve alongside Jews in any and every role. Your views are is so sad, because they are exactly why the conflict in Israel has had no resolution, and also, coupled with terrorism and the intifadas, why the Israeli populace now has a negative view of the two state solution. As for your points: #1 if you google what happened in Sydney you'll find there's video and coverage of the incident by many sources including a police investigation of the crowd chanting "gas the Jews". #2 BLM didn't use any footage of paragliders, wrong again and a simple google search again would have yielded multiple sources including https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12617059/BLMs-Chicago-chapter-backs-Palestine-using-image-PARAGLIDER-like-Hamas-terrorist-flew-peace-rave-massacred-200.html . #3 again, Mr. Google could have helped you out if you actually were seeking truth, although, in truth, you make my point for me given that you admit "From the River to the Sea" calls for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, #4 every comment where you admit there was antisemitism, includes a caveat or excuse, for example in this comment you state "fortunately no one was hurt" which of course you cannot possibly know and I am sure that these students have been damaged psychologically by the actions of this crowd of haters. I know as an academic, I would be severely traumatized if I was chased down the hall by a yelling crowd and had to hide behind locked doors. You simply have no sympathy for what Jews are going through, given this rise in blatant antisemitism, and you *never* condemn it specifically, you just say "antisemitism is horrible", end of story, #5 again another caveat "Dr. Massad's apparent insensitivity doesn [sic] not reflect on the Palestinian people or on those who support their right to freedom and safety, are you really saying antisemitism plays no role in the conflict, that everyone who's caught expressing antisemitic views is a rare exception? I notice you never addressed my point that Palestinian antisemitism has a long, sordid, and well documented history with riots/pogroms in the 20's culminating in the Palestinian boycott of Jews '36-39. You also never answered my point regarding the indigeneity of the Jews to Israel, even in recent times, with Jerusalem a majority Jewish city by 1840, and Sfat and Tiberias majority Jewish by 1920. You also ignore the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries between '48 and 73, because I guess only certain refugees count. Finally, although the claim is made that this is all about settler-colonialism, Israel never fit that paradigm (another unanswered point) because Jewish settlers: 1) had no home colony, 2) didn't use the language of the home colony, and 3) never shipped resources back to the home colony. If Israel should be broken up because of colonialism then every other country in the Middle East should because they were all set up by the same mechanism. But I forget, we're only talking about Israel here, not anywhere else. It is unfortunate I have to bang you over the head with my credentials, but it's necessary because you put forward so many untrue statements, and refuse to admit that antisemitism plays any role in current demonstrations/political views. In fact, I do know who I'm talking to, I'm talking to an antisemite who calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. We live in a country where speech is free so you're entitled to your views, but don't try to hide them as something else.
This debate has stayed civil, which I very much appreciate. However, I must jump in now to say that I do not allow ad hominerms in the comments section here. I realize these are hugely important, high-stakes and also deeply personal issues for most of us. I try to welcome discussion as much as possible. But for the sake of maintaining the community of Lit Mag News readers, direct insults and ad hominems against other readers must be avoided. Thank you for understanding.
I agree the discussion has become heated, and I said previously that I was done with it but if there is evidence to support a claim, then it's not an ad hominem attack. I mean if a poster put an image of themselves wearing a Klan uniform in their post, would you then claim that calling them a racist was an ad hominem? I also find it interesting that you are replying to my post, rather than both of ours.
Yes, calling someone an "antisemite" is an ad hominem. I replied to you because you are the one who used the word against another commenter. If I saw anyone else leveling ad hominems toward you, I would likewise respond in this way.
You might feel that it is a true characterization. You are entitled to feel that way. However, as moderator of this site, I need to ensure that this type of commentary is avoided. I don't want direct insults and ad hominems used against you, I don't want them used against others, now and in the future, in any context. Again, thank you for understanding.
I feel for you Gary because you are clearly very emotionally upset. I won't bother to respond to your odious personal accusations against me because they are too absurd. Furthermore, as we all know, ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of those without any actual arguments. In any event, this is not about me (or you) and our beliefs about the world or each other, but rather about all the dead, dying, and suffering of people in the Middle East in both Israel and Gaza. As of November 24, the Committee to Protect Journalists reports that at least 53 journalists and media workers are among the more than 15,000 killed since the war began on October 7—the highest death toll for journalists in the shortest time period in recorded history — with over 14,000 Palestinian deaths in Gaza and the West Bank and 1,200 deaths in Israel. The second-deadliest day for journalist deaths occurred on November 18, with five killed; the deadliest day of the war was its first day, October 7, with 6 journalists killed. According to the Geneva Convention, journalists and media workers operating in areas of armed conflict must be treated and protected (as civilians) and permitted to perform their work without undue interference. That is why they wear big vests with the word PRESS on them. That is also how we know they are being targeted by the IDS. Way back in May, Al Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Aqla was intentionally shot dead by an Israeli soldier and the whole world saw it. Deliberately assasinating journalists and civilians constitutes a war crime. Journalists are our fellow writers, Gary, and we may be rightfully appalled at them being eliminated by the IDS just to eliminate their reports to the world on the grim situation in death camp Gaza. So insult me all you like. Attribute to me ideas and positions that are not mine. Make me into your enemy. I don't care. The point is that there is a massacre going on and anyone with eyes to see knows this. You turning me into your personal bogeyman doesn't change that fact.
Oh, hardly. Can't speak for all with pro-Palestinian sympathies, but I think most thoughtful people are perfectly able to distinguish between the two. Hamas is widely considered to be a terrorist organization. Why would a brutal attack on settlers lead people to side with the attackers? Palestine has been getting oppressed by Israel as long as I can remember, and now Gaza is being at least as much brutally attacked as what Hamas did. "Rallied millions of Leftists to the Palestinian cause": please don't make wild claims. Bye now; I don't want to get pulled further into an unreasonable conversation.
It's always useful to have a list of literary journals someone thinks should be censored or penalized. Usually that means they're doing something right.
[Out-of-context quote] Kevin Walker says, “No group of people can ruin literature."
Reality check: oh, sure they can.
Their names? Indie publishers (and maybe certain bigger houses, too).
And yet we never talk about it.
Are we too ashamed [blush, blush] to discuss delicate topics - - - such as disappointing book sales figures?
Are we too busy genuflecting because some benighted soul published our manuscript, therefore, it was all right if the press subsequently murdered the book by NOT marketing it - - - or working against the writer's marketing efforts?
* * * * Personal example: though I did substantial marketing for a certain title last year, and though I received numerous rave reviews, my publisher had the lamest excuses for NOT even adding those promotional links to his page for my book!
Are post-publication memories too embarrassing to bring up on forums?
Are we ready to air dirty literary laundry re: the predatory publishing agreements we have declined to sign? In 2023, I declined THREE predatory "contracts" from 3 different publishers.
Anyway, have you ever thought about this, too?
Is the goal merely to publish a manuscript - - - - and who cares if only a dozen copies sold?
Are there reasons that rogue author agreements or nixed post-pub promises will never come up?
Or is everyone here (perhaps) already in the "bestseller" category?
I'm eager to hear what others think about such secretive and unmentionable subjects.
I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by this post, Becky. By quoting three consecutive statements supporting Hamas, you yourself seem to be taking a side.
The Israel - Palestine conflict is obviously an emotional issue for many people but I think Becky should be commended for reporting instances of alleged censorship by litmags and protest in response. It is, after all, litmag news. As for quoting statements, I'd say this lets us judge for ourselves whether a statement is reasonable, hyperbolic and over the top, or actually supportive of Hamas.
Not only are the first three statements in support of Hamas, they are quoted in full, allowing the authors to share the full force of their argument. The last statement quoted, if one makes it that far, is in support of Israel. Becky could have chosen to summarize the quotes, or just mention that pro-Hamas statements had been made by certain editors, but by choosing to start her post with the full statements, she is giving the pro-Hamas crowd center stage. This, I think, is revealing.
Hi Bruce. I would not automatically assume that the length of various quotes is reflective of my own positions. Certainly it can be, at times. But not always. In general I would like readers to decide for themselves what to think, and longer quotes may be necessary for readers to make that determination. Similarly, there may be reasons why I do not quote longer passages from an article, which have more to do with the way the article itself is written than with wanting to impart my own views upon readers. (It may contain references to many things beyond the lit mag world, as just one example).
As for the "three consecutive statements," well, this is what is going on right now in the lit mag world. If there are articles with alternate viewpoints, which *also* pertain to lit mags, you're welcome to share those links with me, anytime.
But what is the point of your comments? So you suggest below that you are a woman. And still what does it matter? Palestinian women have been claiming for decades that they've been raped in Israeli jails and elsewhere. Do you care about them? And where does all this get us? I simply want the war machine to stop. Do you?
Omg, I made the newsletter! Feeling famous. (Also, just wanted to let you know that you got my name wrong in your photo caption –– it's "Cavar", not "Carver".)
Thank you, Becky, for compiling this, and for effectively being my biweekly literary newspaper. The last few weeks in the ~literary community~ have been impossibly challenging, but also deeply clarifying.
Just want to be sure I'm understanding the registration issue correctly: Is the problem that the links *to* register didn't work (such that one would know if they tried to register for an event and were not successful in doing so), or that the Zoom links provided following registration were bad (such that one will not know that registration was unsuccessful until they attempt to join the event day-of)? I registered for a few Nov. events within a day or so of that email going out and had no apparent issues; I want to make sure that I don't need to re-register.
Sarah, the links within the email itself did not work. But the links to register directly through the site do work. Sorry for the confusion. Bottom line: If you were able to register for the sessions, then no worries! You're all good!
So what comes next? A requirement that all writers and editors declare in full their position on every major political and social issue, as well as any inherent biases they may have against certain types of writing, writers etc? And would that be any better than the current trend to 'disappear' writers who have failed to leap onto the correct bandwagons? Madness lies both ways.
Probably yes and yes. Because we have officially lost our minds.
Hah. This dude blocked me after i said I reported him
Reported for antisemitism
Besides, if writers disagree with current political leanings, they can make their own litmag as done throughout litmag history. Same with genre and style.
The best solution is for magazines themselves to have clearly defined political leanings then editors and writers can decide if they are a fit. Kinda like how Google as a company is liberal but not necessarily everyone within it is aligned with that, but understands going in that’s what the company is about and have the option of staying or leaving.
Reported for Antisemitism
Personal political passions have been riling up the American workplace well before the latest conflict. Everything from the McCarthy anti-communist crusade, the Vietnam War, all the way to BLM, and, now, Israel vs. Palestine. Think about it: all this violent rhetoric is just mirroring the dehumanizing of the "other". It would really benefit the literary combatants to calm down and take a time out before acting precipitously.
Your comment also raises the question of when writers have an obligation to speak out on moral issues and whether literature can change minds, widen the window of permitted conversation, or even save lives. Or whether writers should stay from matters that involve difficult political and social questions, or that will inflame and invite backlash. The answer obviously isn't going to be the same for everyone and isn't going to be the same in all situations. But my guess is that a lot of people who didn't speak out in the McCarthy era, when the Viet Nam and civil rights protests were beginning, or against South Africa's apartheid later wished that they had.
If we consider musicians writers, then they did speak out against war. Writers have no particular obligation one way or another to write on current events, but if they do it’s because they are passionate in doing so
Reported for hate speech including antisemitism, anti islamic, anti lgbtq+
Thanks for that great display of humanity. Actually I know two families who lost children in the massacre, so in fact it is about me, my relatives and friends. In contrast to your mistaken assertion (purposeful?) that all that's being said is "Israel, we charge you with genocide" there are well documented antisemitic actions that have occurred on campuses see today's Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/11/campus-anti-semitism-hamas-war/675991/ and I could quote or provide links to other articles such as the Jerusalem Post https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-770475 . I do notice that you mention nothing about the massacre and kidnapping of Jewish children, so apparently you have no concerns about those acts, or the Hamas charter which calls for Jewish genocide. And please, you know nothing of me, what training I've had in the conflict, what I've experienced, or done, so don't bother telling me what I should and shouldn't care about and stop your ad hominem attacks. Human rights work both ways. In fact I am very concerned about civilian casualties in Gaza and mourn the fact that Hamas uses civilians as shields as documented in this NATO report https://stratcomcoe.org/.../pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf . "A broad swathe..." of Germans demanded the extinction of the Jews, so arguments about popular opinion are particularly irrelevant to issues of human rights.
We all need to be very careful of what we say now and what media we refer to as "authoritative". I am very sorry for the losses experienced by the two families you know personally, Gary. It is a tragedy. I know a writer with four children in Gaza and she, a primary school teacher, has lost numerous of her beloved small students in the Israeli bombardments. My fellow literary translator Khalid mourns the deaths of family members in Gaza and lives every day far away from them in Europe fearing that the rest will be wiped out by an Israeli bomb or shot dead in the street by Israeli soldiers. So we both know victims. But our personal feelings for the people we know and their suffering do not make either of us more or less authoritative on the matter of what is actually going on in this hideous conflict. The article you cite in The Jerusalem Post is particularly egregious in stating that ralliles calling for an end to 70 years of Palestinian suffering are anti-semitic. They are not, rather they are human rights rallies protesting the fact that for generations Palestinians there have been born, lived, and died within an open-air prison. Many Jewish groups, congregations, and denominations who are also loudly calling for a ceasefire. Jews for Justice are very vocal on social media are are calling for a cease fire immediately and filled Grand Central Station last week, keeping the trains from running. Norman Finklestein, the Jewish political scientist, is clearly calling out the US, Britain, and Israel. Listen to him here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=kY9fdWz1mGI . You can listen to reporters from Gaza talking about the Gazan tragedy and the genocide, human rights workers telling us about entire families wiped out. See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4g0c8T6mZw UNICEF, Doctors Without Border, Human Rights Watch and numerous international human rights organizations confirm the vast death toll, including over 3500 children, and the human rights abuses that continue to occur on the ground in Gaza. Yes, antisemitism is real. So is racism. So is mimsogyny, which is responsible for millenia of women's suffering and death, and so is the ongoing oppression and genocide of the Palestinians, proud descendents of the ancient Canaanites. I recommend that you watch Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, co-founder of Jewish Voices for Labor, talk about what it's like to be threatened, harassed, and called a "kapo" by fellow Jews for supporting the rights of Palestinians (listen to her here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw). One of the biggest problems the Jewish community faces is the insistence by both Jews and non-Jews that it is just one, big undiferentiated block. This is one of the typical tropes of all forms of racism and it is being perpetuated, ironically, by many Jews who fear antisemitism. Increasing numbers of people in the international Jewish community understand this and are speaking out, not only against the violence but also against the wicked accusations that they are "self-hating Jews" for opposing the genocide of the Palestinian people. They deserve to be listened to.
I am very suspicious of blacklists and particularly blacklists of entire organizations. We need to be very careful with such broad-brush accusations. PEN America has over 7, 500 members who do extremely good work protecting writers, fighting censorship, and introducing world literary voices to Americans. I am a member of PEN America and I am not a Zionist. While there are indeed pro-Zionist elements in PEN, they are hardly in the majority.
I’m working on litmags within my general circle and seeing who is publically pro-Palestine. Editors do swap out with large magazines so then would political views.
As an older person of the Jewish faith, whose grandparents left Russia because family members were killed in pogroms, and as someone who lost five family members in the Holocaust, I can't believe we've come to this. Graduate students ripping down posters of kidnapped kids, students chanting kill the Jews, and lit mag folks insisting it's just about colonialism. It feels very much like Germany in 1936. The saddest thing is so few of these protestors and BDS folks actually know much about the history of the conflict, because, well, it's not really about facts is it? And deep down, it's not really about Israel either, it's just about that millennia old racism called antisemitism.
You must be watching Fox News because what you are asserting here is false. The chant uttered during recent demonstrations is being misrepresented in the right wing media and it would be helpful if you didn't feed the disinformation machine in this space. Protestors aren’t saying “We want Jewish genocide,” but “Israel, we charge you with genocide.” It is a typical refrain heard at pro-Palestinian rallies. Secondly, your ancestors' suffering is really terrible, but kindly remember that these protests are not about you or your ancestors. A broad swathe of the public is demanding a cease fire and an end to Israel's mass slaughter of innocent civilians. Let me repeat: This is not about you and no one cares that you are Jewish. It is about thousands upon thousands of dead children and innocent adults, crushed, bloodied, and murdered by the U.S., British, and Israeli war machine. Over 40 reporters and photographers have been deliberately assassinated in Gaza. That is what you should care about.
Just a note, D.P. I care that Gary is Jewish. There are fewer Jews in the world today that 100 years ago because of eliminationist anti-Semitic expulsions, organized State sponsored mass murders and pogroms. The voice of a people whose history includes a thousand years of such should be at least listened to.
And yes, you are correct, “We want Jewish genocide,” was never chanted. It was “Israel, we charge you with genocide.”
Well Dick, her claim that no antisemitic statements were chanted is simply wrong. See my references. In a demonstration the other day at the University of Maryland College Park, "Holocaust 2.O was painted on the ground as reported by the Washington Post and there's a photograph of it in Jonathan Allen's tweet here https://twitter.com/jonathanallen44/status/1723032487155097951?fbclid=IwAR3IZ9YshvPGyzbT6aDjv5p6mWcN--fGdbu9ByXukgV2AU5Xttc8-xYRaQU
That's fine, Dick. I understand what you are saying and it is well known that the Jewish people have suffered tremendously throughout history as have other populations, like enslaved Africans and the indigenous people of the Americas. What I mean is that his being Jewish has nothing whatsoever to do with the ongoing protests of mass genocide in Gaza and that is the topic we are discussing. Also, there are about 16.1 million Jews in the world today; at the end of the 19th century there were less than 10 million. So there are actually more Jews in the world today than there were 100 years ago, despite all the horrific barbarity against the Jews in the 20th century. It is crucial that we cleave to facts at times like these.
With all due respect, I'm not sure what your point is. If you're saying that antisemitism is bad and evil, I agree. But if you're saying that antisemitism, the Holocaust, or the Oct. 7 Hamas crimes gives Israel license to impose a disproportionate retaliation that may turn out to be ethnic cleansing or a near genocide, well, I'd have to disagree. I also don't think past crimes and antisemitism justifies penalizing or silencing writers or students who today criticize Israel's policies against the Palestinians or call for a cease fire in Gaza. BTW, if you haven't done so already, I'd encourage you to read the letter by Jewish writers, published in n+1, that recognizes the evil of antisemitism but objects to its conflation with criticism of Israel. Here is the link:
https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/a-dangerous-conflation/
I'm not sure if you're responding to me or not but we weren't talking about disproportionate responses, what we were talking about was people being silenced and frankly I agree, no one should be silenced. But that includes both pro- and anti-zionists. In case you think there are no attempts to silence pro-zionists. However, demanding that a literary publication take a political stand on a political position is inappropriate in my view, and of course silences those with opposing views. The link to the Writer's for Palestine document that identifies pro-Israel publications is a clear example of trying to silence those with opposing views. Do you support that? The whole BDS campaign is based on trying to silence those supporting Israel, albeit certainly protected under free speech. I get tired of refuting the misuse of the term genocide so I'll let that pass. And I've never claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, although, frankly, much of it is. I think the letter you cited presents much inaccurate information, well distorted information, especially the claim that Israel practices apartheid, and I notice that Judith Butler, one of the founders of the BDS movement is a signee, which for me, is the icing on the negative cake.
So long as the parties of God have a veto on the solution in Israel/Palestine there will never be peace. There will never be compromise. The killing is based on two religions, each of which claim a holy warrant on the same territory, and they kill each other over Bronze Age scrolls written before we knew the Earth went around the sun and the pronouncements of an illiterate desert wizard. Which one of these sides do you want to back? There is enough atrocity to go around, and all of it is done in the name of religion.
Thanks for your tone. I don't really want to belabor this discussion, because although we have sympathies for both sides in this horrible conflict. You don't know my background and I don't know yours. Nonetheless, statements like "But our personal feelings for the people we know and their suffering do not make either of us more or less authoritative on the matter of what is actually going on in this hideous conflict. " are not accurate given that I have done two fellowships in Middle Eastern studies, have extensive training in the history of the conflict, have met with both Israeli and Palestinian Peace negotiators, and have friends in both Israel and Gaza. Where we differ is in attributing the horrible conditions the Palestinians face to Israel (you) versus mostly the Palestinian leadership and terrorist groups (me). You cite only sources that serve your argument such as the widely criticized Norman Finkelstein who claims the Holocaust is a crutch used by Jewish groups for political gain, and JVP and others who deny the right of Jews to have their own state despite their residence there for millennia (Jerusalem has been a majority city since 1840, Sfat and Tiberias since the '20s). You also ignore the much better lives that Israeli Arabs have in comparison to Arabs in any neighboring country (did you know the majority of pharmacists in Israel are Arab). I could go on, but I won't, other than to say that much of the opposition to Jews in Israel and the existence of the state, is in fact, antisemitic, regardless of whether it comes from people ripping down posters of kidnapped Israeli children, protestors chanting statements that call for ethnic cleansing of Jews, or members of JVP. Just a few choice tidbits of antisemitic outbursts after the 7 October massacre (these are all verifiable via a quick Google search): 1) protestors outside the Sydney Opera House chanted "gas the Jews", 2) BLM was quick to use a graphic depicting Hamas terrorists on paragliders as a symbol of resistance, 3) George Washington University students projected the words “Glory to Our Martyrs” and “Free Palestine from the River to the Sea” in giant letters on campus buildings, 4) Jewish students at Cooper Union in NYC had to hide in the library from a mob pounding on the door, 5) several academics have publicly come out in favor of the Hamas action calling it "awesome" (Prof. Joseph Massad) and "energizing" (Russell Rickford) and 6) even the FBI has noted a horrific increase in antisemitic acts in the US. You ignore the role of racism/antisemitism in the conflict even though it was wide-spread in Palestine during the British Mandate (Arab pogroms of the '20's and the Arab boycott of Jews (1936-1939), and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a friend of Hitlers and spent much of WWII in Berlin. I don't really have time to answer every one of your claims, and yes we live in a country where we have freedom of speech, so even antisemitic speech is protected. But if one claims to be a human rights you can't sit silent while antisemitism flourishes in a movement and yet sit silent when it happens.
1. "Unverified footage shared by the Australian Jewish Association and featured on Sky News appeared to show a small group outside the Opera House lighting flares and chanting "gas the Jews"." - Reuters. Key word, "unverified"
2. BLM is not an organization, so it didn't "use" any footage. BLM is a decentralized movement.
3. The call "From the river to the sea" is not antisemitic. The call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s and was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine . Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes and that they would cease to be treated like second-class citizens.
4. It is absolutely wrong if Jewish students were threatened at Cooper Union. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
5. There is no defense for calling an attack on human beings "awesome". That said, Dr. Massad's apparent insensitivity doesn not reflect on the Palestinian people or on those who support their right to freedom and safety.
6. Anti-semitism is horrible. (I can't believe I even have to state this, but the tone of this thread demands such clarity.) Also, charges of antisemitism are being leveled at people who do not support the actions of the state of Israel, which is just silly. Israel is kidnapping writers, killing journalists (almost fifty dead now, many of them deliberately targeted). So where, my writing friend, do you stand on the killing of writers, reporters, photographers, and poets? Because the state of Israel is deeply engaged in that activity.
Please don't bang us over the head with your fellowships and academic credentials. You have no idea who you're talking to.
After this post I'm done with discussing this with you, because you simply ignore or dispute every bit of evidence that contravenes your world view that Israel (yes a country full of Jews and Arabs, and the only Jewish state in the world as opposed to the 58 other countries that have state religions) is at fault for everything. In addition, you continue to deny that antisemitism plays a substantial role in both the conflict and the demonstrators of today. Also, you make specious claims that Israel targets and kills "writers, reporters, photographers, and poets." without any documentation or qualification, as if Israel goes into the West Bank and says line up the writers because we have to kill them. Again, in case you need reminding Israel is the sole country in the Middle East where there is freedom of the press and Arabs serve alongside Jews in any and every role. Your views are is so sad, because they are exactly why the conflict in Israel has had no resolution, and also, coupled with terrorism and the intifadas, why the Israeli populace now has a negative view of the two state solution. As for your points: #1 if you google what happened in Sydney you'll find there's video and coverage of the incident by many sources including a police investigation of the crowd chanting "gas the Jews". #2 BLM didn't use any footage of paragliders, wrong again and a simple google search again would have yielded multiple sources including https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12617059/BLMs-Chicago-chapter-backs-Palestine-using-image-PARAGLIDER-like-Hamas-terrorist-flew-peace-rave-massacred-200.html . #3 again, Mr. Google could have helped you out if you actually were seeking truth, although, in truth, you make my point for me given that you admit "From the River to the Sea" calls for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, #4 every comment where you admit there was antisemitism, includes a caveat or excuse, for example in this comment you state "fortunately no one was hurt" which of course you cannot possibly know and I am sure that these students have been damaged psychologically by the actions of this crowd of haters. I know as an academic, I would be severely traumatized if I was chased down the hall by a yelling crowd and had to hide behind locked doors. You simply have no sympathy for what Jews are going through, given this rise in blatant antisemitism, and you *never* condemn it specifically, you just say "antisemitism is horrible", end of story, #5 again another caveat "Dr. Massad's apparent insensitivity doesn [sic] not reflect on the Palestinian people or on those who support their right to freedom and safety, are you really saying antisemitism plays no role in the conflict, that everyone who's caught expressing antisemitic views is a rare exception? I notice you never addressed my point that Palestinian antisemitism has a long, sordid, and well documented history with riots/pogroms in the 20's culminating in the Palestinian boycott of Jews '36-39. You also never answered my point regarding the indigeneity of the Jews to Israel, even in recent times, with Jerusalem a majority Jewish city by 1840, and Sfat and Tiberias majority Jewish by 1920. You also ignore the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries between '48 and 73, because I guess only certain refugees count. Finally, although the claim is made that this is all about settler-colonialism, Israel never fit that paradigm (another unanswered point) because Jewish settlers: 1) had no home colony, 2) didn't use the language of the home colony, and 3) never shipped resources back to the home colony. If Israel should be broken up because of colonialism then every other country in the Middle East should because they were all set up by the same mechanism. But I forget, we're only talking about Israel here, not anywhere else. It is unfortunate I have to bang you over the head with my credentials, but it's necessary because you put forward so many untrue statements, and refuse to admit that antisemitism plays any role in current demonstrations/political views. In fact, I do know who I'm talking to, I'm talking to an antisemite who calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. We live in a country where speech is free so you're entitled to your views, but don't try to hide them as something else.
This debate has stayed civil, which I very much appreciate. However, I must jump in now to say that I do not allow ad hominerms in the comments section here. I realize these are hugely important, high-stakes and also deeply personal issues for most of us. I try to welcome discussion as much as possible. But for the sake of maintaining the community of Lit Mag News readers, direct insults and ad hominems against other readers must be avoided. Thank you for understanding.
I agree the discussion has become heated, and I said previously that I was done with it but if there is evidence to support a claim, then it's not an ad hominem attack. I mean if a poster put an image of themselves wearing a Klan uniform in their post, would you then claim that calling them a racist was an ad hominem? I also find it interesting that you are replying to my post, rather than both of ours.
Yes, calling someone an "antisemite" is an ad hominem. I replied to you because you are the one who used the word against another commenter. If I saw anyone else leveling ad hominems toward you, I would likewise respond in this way.
You might feel that it is a true characterization. You are entitled to feel that way. However, as moderator of this site, I need to ensure that this type of commentary is avoided. I don't want direct insults and ad hominems used against you, I don't want them used against others, now and in the future, in any context. Again, thank you for understanding.
I feel for you Gary because you are clearly very emotionally upset. I won't bother to respond to your odious personal accusations against me because they are too absurd. Furthermore, as we all know, ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of those without any actual arguments. In any event, this is not about me (or you) and our beliefs about the world or each other, but rather about all the dead, dying, and suffering of people in the Middle East in both Israel and Gaza. As of November 24, the Committee to Protect Journalists reports that at least 53 journalists and media workers are among the more than 15,000 killed since the war began on October 7—the highest death toll for journalists in the shortest time period in recorded history — with over 14,000 Palestinian deaths in Gaza and the West Bank and 1,200 deaths in Israel. The second-deadliest day for journalist deaths occurred on November 18, with five killed; the deadliest day of the war was its first day, October 7, with 6 journalists killed. According to the Geneva Convention, journalists and media workers operating in areas of armed conflict must be treated and protected (as civilians) and permitted to perform their work without undue interference. That is why they wear big vests with the word PRESS on them. That is also how we know they are being targeted by the IDS. Way back in May, Al Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Aqla was intentionally shot dead by an Israeli soldier and the whole world saw it. Deliberately assasinating journalists and civilians constitutes a war crime. Journalists are our fellow writers, Gary, and we may be rightfully appalled at them being eliminated by the IDS just to eliminate their reports to the world on the grim situation in death camp Gaza. So insult me all you like. Attribute to me ideas and positions that are not mine. Make me into your enemy. I don't care. The point is that there is a massacre going on and anyone with eyes to see knows this. You turning me into your personal bogeyman doesn't change that fact.
Oh, hardly. Can't speak for all with pro-Palestinian sympathies, but I think most thoughtful people are perfectly able to distinguish between the two. Hamas is widely considered to be a terrorist organization. Why would a brutal attack on settlers lead people to side with the attackers? Palestine has been getting oppressed by Israel as long as I can remember, and now Gaza is being at least as much brutally attacked as what Hamas did. "Rallied millions of Leftists to the Palestinian cause": please don't make wild claims. Bye now; I don't want to get pulled further into an unreasonable conversation.
I don't know you and don't appreciate your harassment and name-calling. Please leave me out of the problem you're having.
It's always useful to have a list of literary journals someone thinks should be censored or penalized. Usually that means they're doing something right.
[Out-of-context quote] Kevin Walker says, “No group of people can ruin literature."
Reality check: oh, sure they can.
Their names? Indie publishers (and maybe certain bigger houses, too).
And yet we never talk about it.
Are we too ashamed [blush, blush] to discuss delicate topics - - - such as disappointing book sales figures?
Are we too busy genuflecting because some benighted soul published our manuscript, therefore, it was all right if the press subsequently murdered the book by NOT marketing it - - - or working against the writer's marketing efforts?
* * * * Personal example: though I did substantial marketing for a certain title last year, and though I received numerous rave reviews, my publisher had the lamest excuses for NOT even adding those promotional links to his page for my book!
Are post-publication memories too embarrassing to bring up on forums?
Are we ready to air dirty literary laundry re: the predatory publishing agreements we have declined to sign? In 2023, I declined THREE predatory "contracts" from 3 different publishers.
Anyway, have you ever thought about this, too?
Is the goal merely to publish a manuscript - - - - and who cares if only a dozen copies sold?
Are there reasons that rogue author agreements or nixed post-pub promises will never come up?
Or is everyone here (perhaps) already in the "bestseller" category?
I'm eager to hear what others think about such secretive and unmentionable subjects.
I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by this post, Becky. By quoting three consecutive statements supporting Hamas, you yourself seem to be taking a side.
The Israel - Palestine conflict is obviously an emotional issue for many people but I think Becky should be commended for reporting instances of alleged censorship by litmags and protest in response. It is, after all, litmag news. As for quoting statements, I'd say this lets us judge for ourselves whether a statement is reasonable, hyperbolic and over the top, or actually supportive of Hamas.
Not only are the first three statements in support of Hamas, they are quoted in full, allowing the authors to share the full force of their argument. The last statement quoted, if one makes it that far, is in support of Israel. Becky could have chosen to summarize the quotes, or just mention that pro-Hamas statements had been made by certain editors, but by choosing to start her post with the full statements, she is giving the pro-Hamas crowd center stage. This, I think, is revealing.
Hi Bruce. I would not automatically assume that the length of various quotes is reflective of my own positions. Certainly it can be, at times. But not always. In general I would like readers to decide for themselves what to think, and longer quotes may be necessary for readers to make that determination. Similarly, there may be reasons why I do not quote longer passages from an article, which have more to do with the way the article itself is written than with wanting to impart my own views upon readers. (It may contain references to many things beyond the lit mag world, as just one example).
As for the "three consecutive statements," well, this is what is going on right now in the lit mag world. If there are articles with alternate viewpoints, which *also* pertain to lit mags, you're welcome to share those links with me, anytime.
Supporting Palestine isn't the same as supporting Hamas. Please don't conflate
Yes it is, in this case. It was the brutal terrorist attack by Hamas that rallied millions of Leftists to the Palestinian cause.
Many of us have been for Palestinian rights long before this. What has radicalized many is the massacre of innocents in Gaza.
You mean the massacre of innocents in Israel, right?
No. I mean the massacre all civilians.
But it was 1400 innocent civilians being brutally massacred in Israel by Hamas that started all this.
What on earth. Is this directed at me? I don't need this kind of abuse. I believe Becky issued a special plea to keep things civil. Please go away.
But what is the point of your comments? So you suggest below that you are a woman. And still what does it matter? Palestinian women have been claiming for decades that they've been raped in Israeli jails and elsewhere. Do you care about them? And where does all this get us? I simply want the war machine to stop. Do you?
Omg, I made the newsletter! Feeling famous. (Also, just wanted to let you know that you got my name wrong in your photo caption –– it's "Cavar", not "Carver".)
Thank you, Becky, for compiling this, and for effectively being my biweekly literary newspaper. The last few weeks in the ~literary community~ have been impossibly challenging, but also deeply clarifying.
Ah, sorry about that! Thanks for telling me. Just corrected.
I think Howard's name is spelled "Lovy". https://substack.com/@howardlovy
Thanks Kresha, I made that correction! I seem to have struggled with names this time around!
okay, fair enough
Just want to be sure I'm understanding the registration issue correctly: Is the problem that the links *to* register didn't work (such that one would know if they tried to register for an event and were not successful in doing so), or that the Zoom links provided following registration were bad (such that one will not know that registration was unsuccessful until they attempt to join the event day-of)? I registered for a few Nov. events within a day or so of that email going out and had no apparent issues; I want to make sure that I don't need to re-register.
Sarah, the links within the email itself did not work. But the links to register directly through the site do work. Sorry for the confusion. Bottom line: If you were able to register for the sessions, then no worries! You're all good!
Awesome, thank you!