140 Comments
Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

As an older writer (66), I have noticed that the magazines/journals that publish my work tend to have editors who are not grad students or young adults. Perhaps younger people look for more experimental work, or gravitate to stories about people their age, without thinking that is ageism. It's one thing to say you seek diverse work to publish and another to actually like diverse work enough to publish it.

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Totally agree!

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

As a 74 year old poet with a modest but lengthy and respectable publishing history, I look at the names published in recent issues and try to be sure there are a few older contributors. And if the only older contributors mentioned have been nationally famous for decades, I don't count those, since I figure they may have appeared because of their fame. If I get a rejection slip written in the tone Max Talley describes with "In closing, though there is much to admire in your work, we can't use your piece at this time. During other times, like the Renaissance, the Industrial Age, or the Cold War...we would have been begging to print you damn story..." I make a note not to submit there again.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

What good advice. As a BIPOC author, I often look to see how diverse the contributors and editors are but I will now start paying attention to age as well. I teach creative writing at a community college and usually more than half of my students are 45+ and this is information I could pass along to them.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Thanks, Ursula. It's gratifying to know that what I said will be of use to you in your work. Best wishes re your writing, publishing success, and teaching.

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As both a writer and editor, I'll say lit mags don't have to ask your age to guess it. Stories about parenting or grandparenting -- or explicitly about aging -- aren't often submitted by people under 30, for example. Same for stories that show lived experience in the recent past (say the 70s or 80s). I expect student readers try to see beyond their own experience but if selecting stories from a giant slush pile, well, I'd guess there is sometimes bias. A few publishers are recognizing this however. House of Anansi (book publisher in Canada) invites writers debuting over 40. And Understorey Magazine devoted a whole issue to "Age" -- one of our most read issues.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I have noticed most stories I read recently (though not the Ohio Review which offers a variety of voices) tends to be not so much character driven but place and situation. Bars, parks, gatherings,etc. Settings seem to be large cities rather than small towns or suburbs. I try to read widely, both commercial magazines and small press and/or academic issues. I rarely find a narrarator who seems to be over 35.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

The number of responses to this post are sufficient proof that this issue is real and not a product of our fertile imaginations. I am 65, and published work in college journals when I was in my early 20’s. I did not pursue a career in academia. I married, had children, and barely wrote anything for 30 years.

When I started writing again, I can only liken the experience to that of Steve Rodgers/Captain America— Frozen for 30+ years, now fully thawed, and trying to understand the world in which I now exist. Except of course, I aged in the process, and Cap’ retained his god-like looks and physique. My work usually has a consistent type of tone to it that I do not see in much of what is published now. It looks different too— I find that I do not “get” why and how so much of what is published today looks so different on the page. Many of my writing friends are much younger than me. I had a satirical poem recently published in a literary journal, but for the most part have had difficulty finding acceptance for my work in today’s markets. My bio is quite short because I want the focus to be on the work itself and not who created it. But, I am sure my language and composition tendencies advertise that I am from another time. But, I am still at it and still sending out new work. It is not easy.

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Robin, I think you’re being too kind. The reason a lot of things you see in lit mags look “different on the page” is that they’re not very well-written. I see a lot of crap even in The Paris Review, New England Review and other prestigious journals: fragmentary, unorganized and undeveloped. A lot of what is being published today is very experimental, but experimental is not necessarily good.

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OMG every month now I want to heave my copy of POETRY at the wall--I feel as if today's poetry has moved on to a place I don't find interesting. It's not that I don't love surrealism, but I also love language. I want the tropes to amaze me. I want to learn new words and new ways to put them together, but just ignoring syntax and eschewing form isn't "new", it's just lazy.

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Jul 8, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

There is just so much I do not understand about about the way much of today’s poetry is shown on the page. All those words spread out with big spaces on the pages especially confuse me. I understand neither the why nor the how. Same for shaping poems in the shape of objects— that was done as far back as Herbert’s “ Easter Wings”. Sometimes it all too precious, and not in a good way.

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I love and look for accessible poetry whether ancient or new. And I write accessible poetry. So that's where I look to submit. Re: this topic, I'm revisiting the thread late (or again, can't remember), because I'm debating whether to sub to magazines that do not mention age in their immense lists of diversities and have very young editorial boards and published poets. I gravitate to broad diversity that includes those of us who may not have begun writing late in life (I've written all my life), but whose work feels better than ever, and whose persistence and availability of time enables extensive and broad submissions.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

You can learn a lot by volunteering to read submissions for a lit mag. I read for an MFA-related publication. I don’t think they know they have a 78-year-old gatekeeper. I look for good work from poets no matter what age the work reflects.

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The suspense is killing me. For what lit mags do you guard the gate? And thank you for your service!

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Love this.

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I agree with Paul that ageism may not be a conscious choice, but I certainly feel it. Maybe it's partly my own self-consciousness about my age! There's such an effort to be open to lots of different voices—and rightly so—that maybe older writers get a little lost in the crowd. That said, I always read what a journal is publishing before I submit and look for other clues a publication might be open to my work. But after reading these comments, I think I'll take "retired" out of my bio! Becky, thanks for this helpful discussion.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I appreciate this comment, Gerry - and just ordered your short story collection on Kindle!

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Marjorie, thank you so much!

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I have read the first story - love the way you build the tension steadily, slowly, deliberately, the way the big cat would have moved.

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Yep. Smart to delete "retired" from your bio! Good luck getting your work placed and appreciated!

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I think it’s harder to find stories in literary mags of authors who are over the age of 40. Usually, writers I come across are in the 20-30 age range. I think it’s a shame because older writers have things to offer because most have spent years honing their craft. Why always seek out younger writers who are only at the starting line of their potential? I think ageism lies mostly within the marketing aspecting of writing, however. I’m in my early 20’s, I have been active on the internet since I was 11 (kind of sad) and I know it like the back of my hand. There are specific social media things I understand in terms of how to present my profile and how to get engagement. There are adults who are technologically-savvy, of course. I know plenty of older authors who are great with social media. But I think many feel like a fish out of water with it, and how fast things move. Also, most of the advice geared towards adults about creating a brand as a writer is written by other adults who perhaps don’t understand the nuances of social media because they haven’t grown up with it. And I think it’s often misleading and outdated, because I see adults doing things to advertise their work, which younger people know to be ineffective.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I tried to edit this but it’s quite hard on my mobile. But when I said ‘adults’ I obviously meant ones in an older age range because that term is quite broad.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Dear spiderweb,

Can you offer a social media course, or an essay, or a brief anything, that explains these specific things you understand in how to present a profile and get engagement? Or can you steer old clueless poets to some place that does? I am convinced that without good marketing, little is possible.

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I second Catherine's request. Please share some tips, spiderweb.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Such a great point about older people having had so much more time to hone craft! I’m kind of in the middle here. Just starting out as a writer and in my early 30s. My the time my stuff is good I’ll be at least 40 lol

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Aside from my reflective pieces being in medical journals, I believe, though without proof, that numerous journals have declined my work because of ageism. They likely do so without even realizing what they are doing, in other words, subconsciously. It could be the topic, or the bio that I submit, or something else, I don’t know. This is just my opinion.

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https://www.wshu.org/2022-06-30/reviving-ophelia-author-mary-piphers-new-memoir-highlights-joy-in-the-bleakest-times

I heard this interview this week on public radio. Aging author Mary Piphers has a few things to say on the subject at hand. She makes the point in this interview that the older a person gets, the more it is necessary to look inward for happiness. To offer my own interpretation: The world of the young cannot be fully rejoined by an older person, and trying to do so invites unhappiness. The answer lies within, not in affirmation by the young. Especially in our society where the old are not venerated...but considered anachronistic, or worse yet, parasitic of the resources that the young are being daily denied by the ever longer lifespans of their "elders."

At 63, I can do most of the same things (mentally and physically) that I could 25 years ago. However I know that the shoe can fall any time and it is becoming more and more likely with age. I consider my vitality a blessing. However research shows that people begin very early (before 30) to pass from a phase of "fluid intelligence" to "crystallized intelligence." This crystallized intelligence was in times past thought of as "wisdom," "experience," or "maturity."

About 4 years ago I went through a health scare that affirmed my sense of mortality. It also served as the impetus to write in earnest. Faulkner had something to say about the role of mortality in the life of the artist. He makes the point in his interview with Jean Stein, that it is mortality in fact, that drives the artist to want to leave a permanent record of one's existence, before entering "that final and irrevocable oblivion through which (we all) must pass." So, the time is short as all aging writers feel.

So maybe that is why the best writing is for eternity; it is not crafted to satisfy the caprice of Literary Magazines. I try to read some of these journals but inevitably over and over I find their content irrelevant and contrived and find myself giving up, returning to reading backwards. Recently, Louis Ferdinand Celine, Walker Percy, and on and on. I find my reward not in the present but in the past. Even as recently as the early 2000's. After that, something seems to have happened out there. I just read "novel" called "The Hunting Season" by British author Thomas Benjamin a resident of Bologna. It starts off great but by the end, I know it will never hold a candle to Celine or Percy's work. Neither in plot nor in craft. Not at the sentence level, nor at any other level. Still, the author is being published by a major house and I guess he sells books.

An aging writer can't help but craft things that might be inaccessible, even outside the sensibilities or tastes of the young screeners who read for these journals. So how could there not be some embedded age bias? I've had paid editors reading my work say they can tell simply through my writing "voice" that I am an older writer. Is that a handicap or a gift? I can't say.

Basta cosi. That's enough for now.

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Rick, excellent points, although you almost lost me in the "research shows" analysis of young vs old intelligence. Do your own research and you will find great artists, composers, mathematicians with "fluid intelligence," having groundbreaking ideas, doing creative work into great old age. At age 71 I say, it is what you make it. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. All the rest, Yes, you got it!

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I'm influenced by the thoughts of Arthur Brooks as contained in his book, "From Strength to Strength - finding success, happiness and deep purpose in the second half of life." I have not read it in its entirety but I have read several times the excellent Atlantic article that accompanied its release. I am sure Brooks is much more qualified to research and opine on almost everything than I will ever be! So the thoughts expressed are not my own. Apparently there is much research before Brooks, and the terms are not even original to Brooks. I know however, that he believed so fully in the concept of a marked change from fluid to crystallized intelligence, that he intentionally resigned and left what he was doing on the firm belief that nothing lasts forever, and that he had achieved an age where he should be doing something else. I'll try to look back at the Atlantic article to make sure I have not misrepresented Brooks.

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Certainly that's been true for this old man, Mary-- my brain is shrinking, my soul enlarging--go figure!

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Soul enlarging is the important thing!

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I have known for a long time that 'oblivion' is not what awaits us when we wake up from this long shared dream we call 'life' [or 'the world'] and who knows who will read whom a 100 years from now--if there are still people left to read on this planet, which is not a given by any logic. So I create and share for the moment, because the moment is eternal--really....

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There are many wise comments below and I would agree, without proof, that older writers are discriminated against, especially by college reviews that use students as readers. I don't think much of this is subconscious, I think that the subject matter and interests of 20 year olds and 60 year olds simply differs. I mean it's a rare 20 year old who wants to read a poem about Dad getting puked on at 2am by his first child (okay, that's a thirty-five year old topic), and most older folks write from experience. In addition, almost every poetry review I send work in to (and in the last 2.5 years I've published in 11 different reviews) says that something to the effect that are particularly looking for work from underrepresented groups. Although I get that, I can't help but think (as multiple folks have mentioned previously) that being an old white male probably puts you at the end of the line as far as publication priorities go. OTOH, when I attend on-line workshops the audiences seem to be dominated by older folks and I know many older poets who have no trouble publishing work. But they (I) are more selective about where they send work. With poetry, there is virtually no feedback with rejections, other than the occasional "feel free to send us more work" so it's impossible to know how the selection process works. But I can't think of a time that I've had an acceptance from a university review, which is the type of review that I associate most closely with MFA candidates. I just to joke in the 90's when discussing submissions that I'd be damned if I'd let some 20-something in black Levis and a black turtleneck pass judgement on the quality of my work <g>

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My question would be, how would they know how old I am? Most journals have no age limitations, and rarely ask or require age information. I write about all kinds of people, all ages, and all different social/cultural/historical backgrounds and periods. Or no particular anything. Yeah, I think journals are often staffed by people younger than me, but I have never felt discriminated against, or even "made" as a guy in his 70's. (uh oh, I slipped). I've made wonderful connections and friendships. That's one of the things I love about writing and getting published. It's less me and more the work. My name is Gregg Williard, and I am 71.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I tend to agree with you, Gregg. If the writing is strong and compelling, editors of any age will respond. That being said, it does make sense for older writers to be aware of locutions and sentiments that may sound dated. I love Wordsworth, for example, but I don't try to reproduce his ideas or effects. But if I'm lucky, my writing will reflect some aspect of his sensibility, which, in my view. is ageless.

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Agree completely. I did not mean to say my work is somehow age and time "neutral" (if such a thing were possible); I try to use locutions and attitudes as consciously as I can, to some aesthetic effect, and know that sometimes my choices "date" me, and may, in ways I'm entirely oblivious to, eliminate my work from consideration for some people. I guess that's just part of writing and creating from an individual consciousness, and all I can do is, well, do the best work I can!

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With you 100%, Gregg. As someone who used to work in nightlife, which is probably one of the most ageist industries out there, I adore the "less me and more the work" facet of writing and publication, as well as making connections with all sorts of people.

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Gregg, I agree with what Katherine says—that lit mags can sometimes guess the writer's age from clues in subject matter/time frame/themes; we don't have to give away our age outright. But I agree with you the connections can be there, regardless, and this whole business of writing is indeed more about that work than about the author's personal stats.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Since I've never seen a submission process that required information that would show the submitter's age, I don't see how there could be significant conscious and deliberate bias. From my own experience, a perception of age discrimination may be more of a tonal thing. I am of a certain age and my fiction style probably tends to be a more "traditional" - generally following a clear story arc - and a lot of stories published in lit mags (including the New Yorker) do not follow such a structure.

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Oh, I'm sure n astute kid can tell, by the subject matter, diction, etc.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

The Forge Literary Magazine includes the over-50s in the "underrepresented" categories who can tick the box on their submittable form. (I've copied and pasted the full list below this posting.)

Their submission guidelines state "We read our submissions anonymously. Please do not put your name anywhere in the file." And a little further on, "Literary excellence is our only criteria [sic]."

The "underrepresented" box on their submittable form seems to belie this.

While I fully understand the need for positive discrimination in certain situations and contexts, I find the contortions The Forge resorts to truly nauseating.

For the record, in addition to being over-50, I also fall into some of the magazine's other "underreprepresented" categories but, on the few occasions I've submitted there (unsuccessfully), I have never ticked the box

Underrepresented

We are keen to publish underrepresented voices. If this applies to you please click here and mention it in your cover letter. Underrepresented voices include, but are not limited to, writers who identify as Black, POC, BIPOC, LGBTQI+, or those who have mental health issues, disabilities, neurodiversity, are currently serving or formerly served time in prison, refugee or asylum-seeker, socio-economically marginalized, or over 50 years of age.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

In addition to the many pertinent comments below, I would like to add that younger readers can place you by style. I have spent more than 50 years becoming the writer I wanted to be, and now find that my work is not trendy enough to be "used at this time." It is too careful, too formal for most magazines. Too much attention to detail and craft, too much irony and period authenticity, grammar too precise. I read so much appalling, uncorrected grammar, I despair.

There are exceptions, of course; I have enjoyed inclusion in numerous publications, but find I am disqualified by ever increasing younger editors and readers. On one occasion, an older, established editor who had published some of my poetry and prose with steady praise stepped down to "hand the reigns to a new generation." Since then, I've had no acceptances from that journal. On another, I received a note informing me that, while the previous editor had earmarked my piece for publication, that person had retired, and the new editor did not think the piece met her publication's current needs. Another journal has accepted my photographs repeatedly, as the art editor is in her 60s. When she goes, I'm sure I can kiss that one goodbye, as well, given that my writing is not appreciated there. So it goes...

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Oh yeah, Diane--age discrimination is the most common--and accepted-- prejudice in America/the West. That may explain how we are becoming dumber all the time....

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My husband nearly died because of ageism in the medical profession. A doctor mistook symptoms of subdural hematoma for old age. Of course, nobody ever died of a rejection from a lit mag. But my point is sometimes people don't look deeply into others or themselves to see what is essential. We sometimes replace depth with conventions of style and content--which may differ in young writers and older writers. Will very young editors recognize powerful themes out of their experience? Maybe, if they recognize power. Maybe, if they are themselves outsiders. Because in our society, elders are outsiders. We are quaint. We are the models for zombie characters. I am, in fact, badass, thank you for recognizing that, (and certain lazy, biased doctors may now have an inkling)--but I am aware that to most of the world I am a sweet, rosy-cheeked, curly white haired Grandma, a tray of fragrant cookies in her hand, and not a revolutionary idea in her head.

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Totally get this. Had to become a badass to save my husband's life after a surgery gone wrong. Glad of it and never let it go. Still working to get a verse narrative of it pubbed—pulled it from initial publication because publisher felt she needed essentially to "fictionalize" things to prevent lawsuit.

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I have never heard of a poem triggering a libel lawsuit. There's even a phrase, "Poetic license," pointing out that poetry is not about establishing literal facts, but about the power of opposing evil, injustice, pain. So this publisher is knuckling under to censorship. Medical Deities must be portrayed with haloes, perhaps. My suggestion, throw in a couple of metaphors, no facts need to be changed. Make it more powerful, not less, by a little whittling, more dramatic emphasis.

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Sock it to 'em, as they used to say on Laugh-In [which we can remember]. Truth is, as a young man I loved my grandparents very much and thought all old people 'quaint'--I had NO idea how hard old age was for them but I'm learning now....

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It's impossible to know why editors reject work unless they explicitly say. Yes, we live in an ageist society, but as Gregg said, one of the beauties of writing is that it's less about the writer personally and more about the work, especially if you're submitting anonymously. I used to work in nightlife, one of the most ageist industries out there, and remember being in my 30s and having an 18-year-old who got into the club with a fake ID look me up and down, then say with disdain, "How OLD are you?" Now that's ageism. I just had an epistolary story that's written to a grandparent, from the perspective of the grandchild who is now also a grandparent, snapped up by a very progressive, either Gen Z or Millennial-run journal. However, my sex, drugs and rock & roll tale featuring a cast of queer characters in their 20s has now been rejected 26 times. Publications making diversity statements are trying to encourage marginalized writers to submit in an attempt at equity—they are not trying to marginalize older white men. That's like saying Black Lives Matter is an attack on white people. As one of those diverse creators (I'm queer and nonbinary), I don't think it helps give me a leg up in terms of getting published in the wider world—the majority of journals I've been published by are queer and nonbinary/trans focused. Once again, though, I have no way of confirming any of this, it's all conjecture. If I were an editor, I would absolutely love to publish work by older writers—many of my favorites are in their 50s and up. There is no substitute for life experience.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Would love to read this epistolary story! Where is it coming out?

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Oh, thank you for your interest! It's out at Powder's Press, Issue 3 p. 42 of the PDF: https://www.powderspress.com/issues

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

It’s been clear to me that the society I live in is not very interested in what women over 60 have to say about our lives, whether that’s in person or in writing. If I write about my own lived experiences of menopause, grandparenting, growing old with my partner (supposedly a relational ideal but BO-ring in prose, apparently), forget it. If I inhabit the worlds of my 18-25 year old students in my writing, interest perks up right away, even though obviously I’m still 64 years old.

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Yes definitely- unless a journal specifies an older demographic 90% of their stories feature characters between 18 and 30 years of age. Interesting enough I’ve also had stories rejected because the characters were too young. A rejection that says “I stopped reading when I found out the narrator was 12 because I don’t read kids”

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

You NEVER see a call for “emerging older writers”! Over 40 is definitely over the hill in the writing world unless you’re already somewhat famous or distinguished. It’s nuts because sometimes a 40 yo, or even a 90 yo, can write from a 26 yo POV better than a 26 yo!

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Yeah, but what do you know at 26 ???

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

In response to many of the comments today, perhaps when looking for journals to submit to, one criterion could be 'Not one run largely by MFA students'.

I must admit that I'd submit more if I found more magazines that published stuff I wanted to read. I don't think age is anything like the only issue here.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

For anyone older, topics like nature, new love/sex, or poems dealing with current events should get you published if you are a good writer. What I find more telling about ageism or editorial POV in many journals is content that is essentially reportage versus content that provides an emotional tug for the reader. Too often work does not show any vulnerability or effort to connect a reader to experience something they know or better yet, an experience they've never considered before. Poets and writers can anger, comfort, exhilarate, but, please, do not bore readers with pontifical poop or mind meandering that doesn't say anything.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Thanks for writing this, Becky! I think it's definitely a concern for so many of us partly because getting older is already riddled with so many concerns. I procrastinated for many years with writing and getting published and it wasn't until I was that "older" writer when I began to have some success but then those concerns of being too old started to set in. The worry was more about missing the mark for publishing a debut novel because being a new writer at 23 is often more appealing than 43. But then I discovered many famous writers didn't actually publish their first novel until they were older. Then that worry spilled over into lit mag submissions and I wondered if they would think I'm not of the moment and my writing won't resonate with their core audience. In any case, the concern is there for many of us and it could be true that many mags do subconsciously prefer younger voices because they are fresh and follow trends. It really is hard to say. However, it does give us pause when submitting and writing our bios, hoping we don't sound like we're "long in the tooth."

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Jul 2, 2022·edited Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I think there is bias against writers over 45, 50--for the sort of structural reasons outlined in the piece, especially if the writer lacks a book/strong publication history or are male. And definitely if they're a white male. Identity politics. But its also a reflection of our values as a society, the cultural and political climate. Of course it's going to be reflected in POBIZ--maybe more than anywhere.

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You do know that publishing is still overwhelmingly white, right? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/11/opinion/culture/diversity-publishing-industry.html

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Oh look, someone's opinion.

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Oh, look, tell me you didn't actually read the article without telling me you didn't actually read the article. Here's a couple of other fact-based articles for you not to read: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/30/us-publishing-american-dirt-survey-diversity-cultural-appropriation https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/69653-why-publishing-is-so-white.html

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I can't get by the NYT pay wall, but did read the short Guardian piece and, basically, we're talking cross purposes. You're talking about the world from a publishing perspective. I'm talking about it from a writer's perspective. That said, I've worked for several poetry publications with large, international readerships (all run by white dudes--though one was a gay white dude) and I can tell you that, from my experience, there is bias against names that "sound like" they belong to white dudes. And I get it, people don't want to hear the straight white male perspective and the sort of white guilt driving a lot of those in-house decisions, those corrective decisions, is understandable. I'm just saying it's a shitty time to be a white dude writing poems in terms of getting your work out there--assuming it's good enough to be published to begin with. I think that's just...evident. Not controversial. Saying that out loud shouldn't be controversial.

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Well, mate, I'm an old white man [though I actually look like a dull pink--dated a Chinese girl once who was very white, so is race really color?] and still I've had poems published in lit mags from India, Croatia, China, Romania, and a dozen others-- even 'woke' Sweden! AND I always tell them I'm old!

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Jul 12, 2022·edited Jul 12, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

How glad I am that this conversation is happening if only because some of us have been able to gather around the campfire and say: Yup, publishing is ageist, no doubt about it. But let us be even more clear: Publishing is especially ageist toward older *women*. The image of the silver-haired male author is still vastly more acceptable to marketers than that of the woman who, though she may have only a few streaks of gray, is nevertheless no longer nubile. Agents are less interested in older writers, too. After all, as one told me recently in a tone of voice suggesting she was sure I'd understand, she was selling a product and young sells. Young also knows less a whole lot of the time. Case in point: I was recently approached to contribute to an anthology by a young-ish woman who checked a lot of the boxes popular with publishers now: Latina, POC, young, and highly photogenic, all of which are qualities that are neither inherently good nor bad. We need more voices of color in publishing, absolutely. But upon speaking with her, I found she knew very little about the topic she had been assigned and after an hour of her picking my brain, I hung up. Why should I coach the person getting paid to do the job? So, yeah, agents, publishers, magazine editors, and our entire society is ageist. And it truly sucks, particularly for women who often postpone their art to bring up families and then are punished for it with indifference.

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Grateful for your final sentence, which is a huge truth.

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Ironically I only became a published poet/essayist in my 70's. Young people are not 'ageist', they just don't understand us old ones--how can they, when their bodies work perfectly and their minds are sharp and restless. As a young man I thought my beloved grandparents were cute, quaint--I had no idea how hard it is getting old. But still in 5 years I've been published in over 90 lit mags in 7 countries with 2 trade books out as well--so somebody younger must be paying attention....

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Wow, see,, I forgot I had responded to this 2 years ago--shrinking brain! But in that time I more than doubled the # of lit mags I got published in, and wrote some of my best work, I think. The body is more than biology-- the body is soul as well, at least for a time....

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Thanks for starting this conversation. I'm 68, and I've had good luck with publishing in many literary journals. However, all I have to do is look at some journals' photos of contributors, and when I see all young faces, I pretty much know the readers or editors won't relate to my poems or like my style, though I'm certainly not super traditional in my writing. I find I have a better acceptance percentage when the editor reads all the submissions rather than when grad students screen them. The editors/publishers of both of my books (Terrapin Books and Kelsay Books) are women of a certain age. That said, the younger poets in my critique group do seem to react well to my drafts and always have good suggestions for edits Here's one journal that does an over 50 issue each year and has also published me readily in other issues. https://gyroscopereview.submittable.com/submit?fbclid=IwAR2KpvRsSptUEKfXtlFKI-4YDPbEqNZa1igpwxVTdhh3yjjGKMrcu2XD1dI

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I entered my MFA program in 2007, graduated 2009 at age 55, and am still writing. I sometimes date myself from my bio's list of my other degrees. I haven't been published much, but think (hope) that's not a reflection of ageism, but not being a good fit for the journals where I submit. I know publishing novels is tilted to younger writers; so is the visual arts world - I was a visual artist for years- and other such creative outlets. I just try to keep writing, submit when it seems I've got something I'd like others to read, and am happy I can keep at it.

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P.S. The program I went to, Rutgers, Newark, scheduled the classes for the evening, so working students could attend. There were a few of us in our 50's, and others in their 40's,

30's, and recent college grads. It was a great experience, great program, and age was never an issue either way.

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I usually look at the editors of reviews and lit magazines and previously published poems before submitting. If I don't see older women poets or if the only older poets are just already famous poets, I don't waste my money.

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Jul 3, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Yes, I think ageism is definitely a big issue in the lit mag world and publishing in general. In many ways I don't think it's intentional, more an sense of obliviousness because society in general is ageist. Getting older is almost seen as something shameful, not something to be celebrated or like these are underrepresented voices that need to be heard. As far as telling the age, I think you can often (but not always) tell the age of an author by the themes that come up. I participated in the Sixfold short story process several times and I read a lot of stories with characters in their 50s to 70s who were overly considered with topics you're more consumed with in your 20s (e.g. does he really like me? What should I do with my life?) I always checked once the names were revealed and the writers were indeed in their 20s.

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Not 'society', Rebeccah, but American society-- we are obsessed with youth, ansdpay the price for that.

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Just keeping score on mature-friendly publishers and sites mentioned to date in this thread. Please add more if you know of any and perhaps Becky could publish the list one day.

Ohio Review

House of Anansi

Understorey Magazine

Forge Literary Magazine

Terrapin Books

Kelsay Books

Gyroscope Review

Sheela Na Gig

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Passager (not a typo) Journal is specifically for writers over 50.

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Thanks, Lynette. I know about Passager now but I'm sure many don't.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I began pursuing my passion for writing after I retired from a career in music education. As a relative newbie, I spend a great deal of time surfing through journals and publications trying to find homes for my work. Much of what I read is written from a younger perspective, and honestly, at times, the "how hip can I appear" aspect overshadows the quality of the work. I also find it sad that we feel the need to remove the word "retired" from our bios. If a publication prides itself on "welcoming all voices" then we shouldn't have to hide who we are in order to receive fair consideration.

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Thanks, Becky for beginning this discussion.

In my experience, ageism and gender are both factors

in submitting work to literary publications. I think many rejections

do reflect a desire to weed out an elder viewpoint...

Also style can prove to be a barrier.

I like to write in episodic chunks, rather than linear narrative - a No No - currently.

Also have developed marked hostility to MFA "formulaic" stories

(ex: if story does not grab reader in first 250 wds, you're out....")

which tends to dictate a "marketable" approach to writing that reminds

me of TV sit-coms.... It's a broad field, so

important to focus on who might be interested in listening to your voice.

Again, thanks for this discussion.

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I haven't submitted short fiction to a mag in ages, because I have been working on a novel since I graduated from my MFA (several years ago now, waylaid by babies and the pandemic, etc). But when I was in grad school, all of the editors and readers for our journal were under the age of 25. My entire cohort was under the age of 23 and over half of them considered themselves queer (when they worked for the journal, they sought out stories that reflected themselves, as we all do, but those identities are not nearly as highly represented in older generations as they are in Gen Z). I remember being particularly struck once in workshop when I mentioned 9/11 and everyone shifted uncomfortably, then admitted they had no memory of it because they had all been in preschool at the time. It's such a divide in lived experience, and what appeals to them-- in terms of story, in terms of style.

As someone in their midthirties and a woman who writes about motherhood and aging, I often pass on submitting for journals or contests when all their recent winners are in their early twenties, and the storylines all feature protagonists who are 16, 18, 20 years old; so many stories about college, internships, breakups, roommate problems, coming-of-age or coming-out stories featuring teens and high school students, troubled relationships with parents (from the perspective of the young person), etc. This of course isn't to say that those aren't worthy topics, not at all. Just that I definitely steer clear when those seem to be the *only* topics of interest to that particular mag. And I won't waste my time paying submission fees to them anymore. It's made me start avoiding some fairly popular "emerging writers" contests, which is a bummer. Like others here, I doubt it is intentional-- just a product of the myopia of people in their early twenties. And I do think that's unfortunate because every decade brings new experiences, relationships, understandings, to inform our work.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I'm probably alone in my lack of concern about ageist bias. It may not be right, but what does it matter? As a 72 year-old, boomer white guy with but one publication (in an obscured journal of no special note), I figure the zeitgeist has passed me by. I'm happy for younger writers who benefit from the bias and the recognition that comes from being accepted by a journal. For my part, I put greater stock in the submission process because it seems to a necessary part of being serious about the writing. After all, who'd be reading my story in in the back half of 'FashionableUniversityLitMag' 10 years from now? For me at least, it's the writing that counts, and having a few generous friends who are willing to read the stories.

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If it's good, it will be seen [I think Shakespeare said that-- just kidding]

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My story is similar to Robin's in that I published poetry early, took a break for 30+ years, then started up again. At that point, I started taking online classes, which led to my first community of poets. I'm 62, and the others are older. Since 2016, when we started our journey together, 2 of the 4 of us have had at least 1 book published, 1 (me) has one launching in September, 1 has been appointed her state's Associate Poet Laureate and teaches workshops. We've all published in print and online. I was worrying about age and one of them said she liked to think of the relevance of the work. We all have something to say and our own way of saying it. We all can and do work on our craft. I'm also trying to remember it's the writing, not the recognition (that darn ego). So do I still worry about ageism? Yep. Sometimes I stop myself from saying something a certain way on social media. But I notice on Twitter that even writers 35 or 40 consider themselves to be old. This says as much about our society as it does publication.

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Lots of agism. The woman who didn't mention she wrote for a mag for elders was protecting herself against systemic agism she can't control.

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I'm the editor of a lit mag and we accept stories from writers of every age. I've published a few high school kids and then people of all ages into their 80's. Maybe this works for us because all the editors on my team are middle-aged—40's and early 50's—we're not spring chickens yet we're not retired or having grandchildren. So perhaps our tastes, due to being in the middle, span a wider range. Because I am aware of ageism in this industry, I do keep an eye on ages when making final selections and if possible try to have a young, middle, and older group.

I think it is smart to leave out references about your age when you query if possible. I see a lot of query letters that say things like "After a long career in education I'm now retired and focusing on writing." Which is great! But knowing that ageism is alive and well in this industry (and many others) I would advise against mentioning your age or things like retirement that hint at age, knowing it may affect how some (not all) editors respond to you. I know when I query or apply to jobs etc. I give as little info as possible about my age since I no longer belong to the highly desired forty and under group! That's just my advice. It's a strategy to help you get around a potential barrier.

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author

Just dropping the name of Elizabeth's lovely magazine here, in case anyone is interested! Parhelion.

https://parhelionliterary.com/

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Jul 5, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I went back to Uni to take an MFA in my mid-50's and a trendy young thing active in the Toronto social scene asked, behind my back, what I was doing there; I'd already had my chance and was taking a spot a younger writer could benefit from. Not cool.

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Yikes. There’s so much wrong with that 🤦‍♀️.

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Don't worry Heather--idiots never flourish [unless they enter politics]

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

But how would any editor know the age of anyone submitting to his/her journal? Unless a cover letter explicitly states the writer's age, an editor would have no idea. Plus, I don't think that writing about an older person or something that happened in the '50s (as just two of many possible examples) means that the writer is old. Writers create worlds and characters that interest them, after all, but said worlds and characters don't necessarily mean that the writer is of a certain age. That said, ageism definitely exists in many facets of life—though how does it exist in publishing if the writer hasn't disclosed his or her age? What am I missing? How can editors tell that a submitter is of a certain age?

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Agreed--writers can focus on any era, regardless of their age. I believe that the real issue here is how wide/eclectic are the reading habits of editors and submitters. If the submitters and editors are curious and educated readers, there is probably less chance of "ageism" or any other too limited perspective. Obviously, there are editors in their twenties who have sophisticated literary tastes just as there are writers past fifty who have a relatively narrow scope. (And the reverse would also be true.) I would hope that faculty advisors to MFA journals would emphasize to incoming editors the virtue of reading across the generations--and the same advice would apply to submitters.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I sometimes worry my bio photo will give my age away too. Most mags often request one.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Really? I've never been asked to supply a photo for any of my published stories. But if and when that happens, I'll be sure to send them something that was taken at least 10-15 years ago!

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Jul 5, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I recently submitted a bio photo when asked to do so, and purposely sent a recent picture of myself wearing coveralls, standing in front of my shed filled with firewood, with a beer in my hand. Forget the "glamour" photo. Considering I often write about working class people, why should I project an image of someone else, especially younger?

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Sorry, I'm thinking of when they accept and want to publish the piece and request a bio photo. I guess at that point it doesn't matter. But I do cringe sometimes wondering if it's gonna make them regret accepting a piece from an older writer. See how crazy we get over this worry!

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Yeah, stop it-- the shallow never sing...by Dylan, he's cool

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sorry, 'be' Dylan

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I've sent my photo mate--hasn't scared anybody off yet [ though it does me]

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Interesting--I've rarely been asked for a photo, even by the online journals.

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Social Media makes it pretty obvious.

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hmm, hate social media-- worse than Covid [and similar]

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Read the thread thoroughly and you'll have your answer. ;-)

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Jan 10, 2023Liked by Becky Tuch

If ageism exists at lit mags, I believe it's one of those issues that's embedded in the structure of a magazine more than an openly hostile environment for older writers. I'm speaking from the experience of having had individuals who were enrolled in MFA students, all under the age of thirty, volunteer for Sunspot Lit as readers. I personally reviewed every piece they rated and found that much of what they recommended for acceptance, either as a strong yes or a maybe, failed to meet some critical element. Either the writing was not strong enough or, more often, it spoke to the life experiences of individuals in the same age group. Among the ones they turned down was the occasional brilliant gem that I was excited to accept; more often, I found works that could have been accepted with a bit of additional work by the writer. The reasons given by volunteer readers for rejection reflected that the volunteers simply didn't have a broad enough perspective to be able to recognize what other voices were conveying, or how universal that experience could be for readers. I will always welcome volunteer readers because I believe in providing an opportunity to watch the action behind the scenes for individuals who might pursue careers in the industry. I will also continue to loop through every single one of their assignments to ensure that the piece is given a fair chance. It's possible that other magazines are accidentally narrowing their scope by assuming that their volunteers are perfectly able to judge the craft of a piece and never considering whether their volunteers have a broad enough perspective to create a truly inclusive submission process.

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that's what happens when you let kids run the store... when is America gonna grew up? Not soon, by the look of the coming election....

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Just saw this residency opportunity for writers over 40 who haven’t yet published a full-length book, and thought it may be of interest to some people on this thread. Scroll down to Debut 40 Residency for more info: https://tinhouse.com/workshop/residencies/

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Jul 5, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

wonderful to get such good response on my remarks about ageism. Another good literary magazine that offers a variety of situations and ages is Colorado Review. I miss The Atlantic having stories. New Yorker is coming along with broader appeal, subjects and situations.

It's hard to find short stories.....I miss Alice Munro and other works in the genre.

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This is such an interesting topic. I know that, as a writer, each time I hit a milestone birthday, I literally thought, "Now I'll never be one of the 'Writers to Watch under 30' or "Writers to Watch under 40'." I feel this value and celebration of the "next generation" of writers for sure.

That said, I was the managing editor of "The Worcester Review" for 7 years and the majority of writers we published were older. We read submissions blind, so editors had no access to writer bios, only I saw that information as I reviewed editors' recommendations. Our editorial team ranged in age from one reader in his twenties, to a handful in their late thirties or early forties, to retirees. That we had such a wide range of ages in our team probably helped.

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Jul 3, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

I never send work to university/college affiliated magazines. I find them very biased against older writers. Actually, my own writing doesn't fit well with what they publish, because it is always written by much younger writers. Ageism is alive and well in publishing, just like snobbery. If you don't have an MFA... enough said.

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MFA-- do you mean Mafia-- you fill in the rest? Some of the dumbest people nowadays have the most degrees--because it has become more indoctrination than education....

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First off -- thank you, Becky, for calling the boomer generation badass, mighty blazing fireballs! Economically speaking, discriminating against boomers makes no fiscal sense -- aren't we the generation with the most time to read (after retirement) and book purchasing power right now? Methinks we are in an excellent position to negotiate favorable terms for our old-timey tales. We've got the numbers, babe.

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

First, thank you, Becky for bringing up the issue. The thread is true to my experience, and as some of the persons commenting have pointed out, our interests are different as we age. That makes it difficult for editorial assistants and editors, who are usually significantly younger. I've been lucky in my publishing, but I'm sure there are journals that take one look at my work and digitally toss my work into the circular file. (This proves my age!) I note that Hayley Mitchell Haugen at Sheila-Na-Gig has been incredibly generous to me and to many other writers who don't fit into pre-determined categories. Send her work!

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Jul 2, 2022Liked by Becky Tuch

Speaking as an older writer (80) who only really began writing poetry about 15 years ago and who has been reasonably successful (4 published chapbooks, poems on places like Lunch Ticket and Fourth River) my sense is not that there is overt agism but that is collaterally related to a change is taste. My poetry tends to often be narrative and always (I hope) grounded in concrete, sensual factuality--my favorite poets being writers like Kinnell, B.H. Fairchild or C.K. Williams or Alicia Ostriker. In other words, writers against the critics who say that this or that poet is "too accessible." On the basis of the results of recent submissions, I fear that my poetry has become woefully out of date relative to what I see in journals such as Poetry or Gulf Coast--in other words: not overt agism but a sort of agism nonetheless.

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Looking forward to finding your accessible poetry—totally "there".

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Wow! This thread has gotten long!! My perspective as a 65-year old "emerging' poet (that is, just started writing and publishing in earnest after retiring from a career in education) is yes and no. Certainly there are lots of contests for, and calls for submission from, writers under 40, under 35, etc. etc. But "emerging" isn't always specified to mean "young" and I've won an "emerging poet" honor from a journal editing by people who are apparently quite a bit younger than I am. I have had a poem accepted by a new journal published by college students and by another apparently edited by recent MFAs or current students. There are other journals published by people younger than I am that look for work much more influenced by popular culture, and I've had some success with them and also a lack of success. Some I wouldn't even try for because I'm not interested in their focus.

I have no doubt that there is implicit agism, but there are also platforms specifically looking for work from older writers. Mostly, I think a lot of it comes down to style, content, focus of work, which is inevitably influenced by age, and it's a matter of picking the platform to match your inclinations in all those realms.

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'there are also platforms specifically looking for work from older writers. ' Can you share these please?

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Passager (https://www.passagerbooks.com) is the obvious one. There's also Quartet Journal for woman over 50, and some others specifically for women included in this thread that Becky published last spring: https://litmagnews.substack.com/p/friday-findings-6-lit-mags-for-writers/comments

There do seem to be more specifically for women, but the comments in that thread include some I haven't explored.

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Unfortunately it seems that Ageless Authors (on Becky's list) is no more.

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Excellent. Keep them coming.

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I will endeavour (shut up, US spellchecker) not to repeat all the excellent points made by others in this thread, most of which I agree with and I nearly nodded my head off in agreement. As a 71 year old who only started writing seriously 2 years ago and has had some minor successes, part of developing a hide like a rhinoceros when it comes to rejections is accepting that the world has moved on.

As such, ageism exists and is not going away any time soon; get over it and move on. (The semi-colon is the dead giveaway in the last sentence, says he, making mental note to re-write his bio.) Some ageism is conscious bastardry but most it is generational indifference and it has ever been thus.

Some key issues at play here revolve around money. Young editors playing the long game are looking to have a successful litmag in their CV. Most litmags have no money and have a limited resource of time to share their page space. Submission fees keep the bailiff from the door.

All of that is understood when I say that a problem for the entire industry is that writers who are financially disadvantaged (through age, disability, unemployment, choosing parenthood etc) are stuck behind an 8-ball that would make Sisyphus despair. All genius solutions gratefully accepted.

In parting, just saying that I resist ticking the 'woke guilt' boxes in submissions and for preferred pronouns I insert 'Doug, Uncle Doug, Grandpa'.

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What's a "woke guilt" box?

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A term I invented for a list of tick boxes that ask you to identify whether you are nonbinary, BIPOC, have a disability etc that publishers hope will signal their intention to provide priority to such submissions or to meet certain publishing quotas. Yes, publishers, like all industries, have historically discriminated against minorities of all kinds but I am yet to be see credible evidence that quotas are the solution. Neither is Lionel Shriver, who has been canceled for saying so. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/12/lionel-shriver-dropped-from-prize-judges-over-diversity-comments

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Folks being "cancelled" particularly white men is as hard to find as bigfoot. They always seem to bounce back. Have people really been calling for quotas? That'd news to me. Increasing diversity? Yes. Quotas? Another Bigfoot.

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Lionel is actually a woman. And folks of all genders being cancelled is real. And yes, quotas are a real thing. Look around. It's called research, Stanley. ;-)

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Oh, I've looked around. These folks rise again like the undead. "Chastized" would be more accurate. Cancelled things don't come back. Even if there are some, quotas are extremely rare and folks who have benefitted from systemic inequalities in publishing are so quick to find fault in efforts to make things more fair. You might research why that is.

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I've got a better idea. How about a writer of undoubted literary merit secretly pen a story, produce it in various versions with characters from different genders, sexuality, ability, race etc and send it to 1000 publishers and compare the hit rate of acceptance. (I have diligently searched for studies similar to this without success.) Then we might have some objective evidence as to the existence or not of systemic inequality. Until then, you and I will just have to rely on our own well researched perceptions. ;-)

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